pool reset

mirddes wrote:

how do you counter 200 pool?

Fundamentally the wrong question. The trick is not to counter 200 pool. The trick is to not let a deck get that much pool, or to render it irrelevant.

How you do that would depend on how the deck is generating that much pool. Tactics would include, but not be limited to:

- killing their minions so they cannot take actions that generate pool (or blood). Killing doesn't have to mean combat. It could mean Baltimore Purge, for example.

- as an adjunct to that, if people are converting blood into pool (e.g. Villein), removing the blood helps even if you don't kill them

- postponing whatever it is they're doing with tactics such as intercept or Delaying Tactics or Wash/Sudden Reversal or Pentex Subversion. Taking out (or messing with) early steps in a chain of cards can cause the deck fun problems with hand jam etc.

These are fairly general purpose, found in lots of decks. More specific options are available. If you're good at managing table hate, a variety of Gehenna Events can mess with decks ability to cycle cards, use disciplines or have access to titles (e.g. breed boon using Creation Rites and Third Tradition may be upset by Fall of the Sabbat/Camarilla).

You can render it irrelevant by, for example, getting 3 VP by ousting the other players on the table while the deck is amassing pool, thus getting you the GW.

If you have a deck that has limitless access to stealth and defence of all kinds and pool generation with no vulnerability to hand-jam whatsoever, you may want to bring the mechanics to light so that it can be examined more closely.

mirddes wrote:

what about 15 pool instead of 30?
more damaging than 30 for a bloat deck.
perhaps make it an event

So, turn one, I do 15 pool damage to my prey by playing an event.

How about no? Also, hell no. Also, Jesus Christ no.

wash/sudden reversal could be a mior problem unless their deck is awash with wash.

pentex subversion is honestly only a minor niggle, its a villein and golconda away from not mattering.

always aim for 5VP.

SCE removes many options for reducing blood on vampires, dodges help.

combo cards are really handy.

take a look at my deck im pretty sure it will shed light on the mechanics.

the trick is to get the 3VP whilamassing and surviving. longgevity is important as well as versitility

mirddes wrote:

wash/sudden reversal could be a mior problem unless their deck is awash with wash.

You don't have to completely nullify a deck. Enough minor niggles - blocked actions here, burned cards there, Washed Golconda there etc. - and a deck can be knocked off course.

mirddes wrote:

pentex subversion is honestly only a minor niggle, its a villein and golconda away from not mattering.

Regularly having both in your hand suggests you're playing very big vampires. This can be extremely vulnerable to aggressive decks, such as weenie Dem, weenie Dom, weenie vote etc., that can be doing significant pool damage in turn 2 and turn 3, when you've barely got a vampire out. If you're looking to do this regularly, you also need to factor in thoughts about bringing out new vampires from your crypt (4 transfers? Effective Management?), and a blend of Zillah's Valley, it's doable but not the smoothest game in town. A variety of MMPA decks have found much more effective options that keep up forward momentum.

mirddes wrote:

always aim for 5VP.

Why? On a table where it turns out I can get 3VP and get a Game Win rather than faffing around with some other deck, that's probably my best strategy.

Sure, I want many VPs too. But getting the Game Win is far more useful. If my predator is busy putting no forward pressure on me because he keeps playing Villein/Golconda, I'll take advantage of that.

mirddes wrote:

SCE removes many options for reducing blood on vampires, dodges help.

Erm, not really. Combat decks have a variety of tricks to get around S:CE. Good combat decks use them because S:CE is quite popular. Immortal Grapple is obviously the daddy. Guns with Psyche! are good for this, due to the limited need to waste resources (e.g. you have a permanent maneuver). Sanguine Entrapment is new, but has a lot of potential. A strong combat deck can dunk vampires fairly easily - the difficulty is usually combining that with a good ousting strategy. Tricks involving Outside the Hourglass are possible but somewhat niche - OtH+Disarm is pretty horrific, if anyone likes playing with True Brujah. Doc Pack sees occasional play (too expensive for my tastes). But basically if your players are playing combat strategies without being able to deal with S:CE, and you're making hay with S:CE, they are probably misjudging the environment and playing badly.

Since you're playing huge vampires and - apparently - blowing them up with Villein and Golconda a lot, your average combat deck is often playing much smaller vampires. The minion advantage can help a lot when weeding out S:CE cards, for those times when you don't have an IG or Sanguine Entrapment for whatever reason. Weenie Potence can be very small indeed.

Also, as noted, a variety of options for killing minions don't care about combat. Baltimore Purge is excellent, and can be followed up by a variety of options, like Vulnerability, diablerie, Gregory Winter etc. It's not the easiest of decks to play - it's capable of generating a lot of table hate, and you have to be careful with card flow - but it's certainly powerful. Or Graverobbing, if that's your preference. That probably ratchets up the table hate by a notch.

Baltimore Purge is far from the only option, of course. A well-timed Sudden Reversal on a Villein/Golconda combo, leaving a vampire empty, followed by a Banishment can be fun, and Banishment sees fairly regular play in political decks.

'Borrowing' vampires and hurting them has a track record in competitive play. Mind Rape is excellent, as is Spirit Marionette. Borrowing vampires, nicking their blood, screwing them up if possible has a long history. Serpentis has options here, with Form of Corruption being particularly insidious around decks that may drop low on blood. Notably, FoC goes in play, not on a given vampire - so it doesn't care if you blow one up. The commonality of Fortitude on many competitive vampires (because of its use for Freak Drive etc.) can make a vampire theft followed by Heidelberg followed by an action of some sort with Daring the Dawn on it quite painful, and it's not that many moving parts in the grand scheme of things - Mind Rape is good, Heidelberg is potentially good, the Daring the Dawn is just a cherry on top.

mirddes wrote:

take a look at my deck im pretty sure it will shed light on the mechanics.

No deck has been provided to look at...

Crypt (21 cards; Capacity min=6 max=11 avg=8.43)
================================================
7x Malgorzata 9 pre AUS DOM THA VIC !Tremere:4
5x Mistress Fanchon 11 AUS CEL DOM OBF THA VIC Tremere:4
4x Nickolai, The Survivor 6 aus dom pot pre tha vic !Tremere:4
5x Rutor 7 pro vic AUS DOM THA Tremere:5

Library (90 cards)
==================
Master (24)
6x Ashur Tablets
1x Channel 10
1x Club Zombie
4x Golconda: Inner Peace
1x Information Highway
1x KRCG News Radio
1x London Evening Star, Tabloid Newspaper
1x Monastery of Shadows
1x Parthenon, The
1x Rumor Mill, Tabloid Newspaper, The
1x Vicissitude
4x Villein
1x WMRH Talk Radio

Action (12)
2x Dominate Kine
5x Govern the Unaligned
1x Magic of the Smith
1x Pulse of the Canaille
3x Rutor's Hand

Equipment (6)
1x Flamethrower
2x Helicopter
1x IR Goggles
1x Ivory Bow
1x Ruins of Ceoris

Action Modifier (19)
3x Bonding
7x Changeling
3x Conditioning
6x Mirror Walk

Reaction (14)
5x Deflection
5x Eyes of Argus
4x Telepathic Misdirection

Combat (9)
9x Meld with the Land

Combo (6)
6x Plasmic Form

mirddes wrote:

Crypt (21 cards; Capacity min=6 max=11 avg=8.43)
================================================
7x Malgorzata 9 pre AUS DOM THA VIC !Tremere:4
5x Mistress Fanchon 11 AUS CEL DOM OBF THA VIC Tremere:4
4x Nickolai, The Survivor 6 aus dom pot pre tha vic !Tremere:4
5x Rutor 7 pro vic AUS DOM THA Tremere:5

Library (90 cards)
==================
Master (24)
6x Ashur Tablets
1x Channel 10
1x Club Zombie
4x Golconda: Inner Peace
1x Information Highway
1x KRCG News Radio
1x London Evening Star, Tabloid Newspaper
1x Monastery of Shadows
1x Parthenon, The
1x Rumor Mill, Tabloid Newspaper, The
1x Vicissitude
4x Villein
1x WMRH Talk Radio

Action (12)
2x Dominate Kine
5x Govern the Unaligned
1x Magic of the Smith
1x Pulse of the Canaille
3x Rutor's Hand

Equipment (6)
1x Flamethrower
2x Helicopter
1x IR Goggles
1x Ivory Bow
1x Ruins of Ceoris

Action Modifier (19)
3x Bonding
7x Changeling
3x Conditioning
6x Mirror Walk

Reaction (14)
5x Deflection
5x Eyes of Argus
4x Telepathic Misdirection

Combat (9)
9x Meld with the Land

Combo (6)
6x Plasmic Form

Any weenie dem, dom or pre deck as your first predator will kill this deck really fast. You probably get to do one or two actions before you're out of game. If you lucky and you have Villein+Golgonda on your starting hand, you get maybe two more turns before you're dead, but in that time you can't even get new vampire out.

I think that if this deck can get 100+ pool and 5VPs, then the problem is that your opponents are just bad players and for that we don't need new card that sets someones pool to 30 or 15.

IMO.