[Submission] Speed Demon (cel untap + no wake usable for tap'n'whatever)
16 Dec 2014 09:39 - 16 Dec 2014 09:40 #68206
by Ankha
Speed Demon
Cardtype: Action Modifier/Reaction
Discipline: Celerity
Cost: 1 blood
[cel] [REACTION] Only usable by a tapped vampire. This vampire untaps and attempts to block.
[CEL] [ACTION MODIFIER] Tapped minions cannot block this action.
A new card that can help !Gangrel (Form of Mist + Speed Demon), tap'n'bleed with celerity (Toreador?). The blood cost is very important not to make the card too cheesy in tap'n'bleed decks (considering that Form of Mist costs 1 blood and Majesty costs 1 blood to, as well a Freak Drive).
I made the "no block" effect the superior to limit it more (is it too much?) Inferior wake for 1 blood is in-line with Eluding the Arms of Morpheus.
(Just to make it clear: superior effect negates the effect of "wake" cards, and can be used after the reacting minion has played a wake, and inferior is not a "wake" effect and can't be negated by itself
).
Cardtype: Action Modifier/Reaction
Discipline: Celerity
Cost: 1 blood
[cel] [REACTION] Only usable by a tapped vampire. This vampire untaps and attempts to block.
[CEL] [ACTION MODIFIER] Tapped minions cannot block this action.
A new card that can help !Gangrel (Form of Mist + Speed Demon), tap'n'bleed with celerity (Toreador?). The blood cost is very important not to make the card too cheesy in tap'n'bleed decks (considering that Form of Mist costs 1 blood and Majesty costs 1 blood to, as well a Freak Drive).
I made the "no block" effect the superior to limit it more (is it too much?) Inferior wake for 1 blood is in-line with Eluding the Arms of Morpheus.
(Just to make it clear: superior effect negates the effect of "wake" cards, and can be used after the reacting minion has played a wake, and inferior is not a "wake" effect and can't be negated by itself
).
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
16 Dec 2014 12:16 - 16 Dec 2014 12:17 #68207
by ReverendRevolver
It enables Zoe, Victoria, Dancin Dana, Lucien, Ruth McGinley, adv Quentin King, Lord Fiana, santaleois, and Unmada to do madness network shinannigans with untapping and being unable (or unwillig to play intercept) to block.
It hoses No Secrets, and makes you waste wake, eyes of argus, on the Q, eluding, forced awake, etc.
It may be less than balanced to make people play awake they cant use, since Brujah and Torries are both capable of large bleeds. Nobody will care that it burns no secrets, im guessing.....
Replied by ReverendRevolver on topic Re: [Submission] Speed Demon (cel untap + no wake usable for tap'n'whatever)
Speed Demon
Cardtype: Action Modifier/Reaction
Discipline: Celerity
Cost: 1 blood
[cel] [REACTION] Only usable by a tapped vampire. This vampire untaps and attempts to block.
[CEL] [ACTION MODIFIER] Tapped minions cannot block this action.
A new card that can help !Gangrel (Form of Mist + Speed Demon), tap'n'bleed with celerity (Toreador?). The blood cost is very important not to make the card too cheesy in tap'n'bleed decks (considering that Form of Mist costs 1 blood and Majesty costs 1 blood to, as well a Freak Drive).
I made the "no block" effect the superior to limit it more (is it too much?) Inferior wake for 1 blood is in-line with Eluding the Arms of Morpheus.
(Just to make it clear: superior effect negates the effect of "wake" cards, and can be used after the reacting minion has played a wake, and inferior is not a "wake" effect and can't be negated by itself
It enables Zoe, Victoria, Dancin Dana, Lucien, Ruth McGinley, adv Quentin King, Lord Fiana, santaleois, and Unmada to do madness network shinannigans with untapping and being unable (or unwillig to play intercept) to block.
It hoses No Secrets, and makes you waste wake, eyes of argus, on the Q, eluding, forced awake, etc.
It may be less than balanced to make people play awake they cant use, since Brujah and Torries are both capable of large bleeds. Nobody will care that it burns no secrets, im guessing.....
16 Dec 2014 13:09 - 16 Dec 2014 13:10 #68210
by jamesatzephyr
This text doesn't actually achieve what you want it to do. See the original text on The Sleeping Mind, where this text was regarded as re-stating the basic rule and didn't actually change anything. [LSJ 20010110]
However, assuming it were reworded to do what you want...
Tap and Bleed would probably receive a fairly significant shot in the arm. Misdirection and Anarch Troublemaker are easily played to tap out vampires. Anarch Troublemaker can be played well in advance and held for later. Have an Anarch Troublemaker in play already and then lunge with Pentex Subversion/Misdirection and this and you can be potentially doing a lot of damage.
Mind Numb (1 blood) combos fairly well with this, because it can not only tap a vampire this turn, but it can keep them tapped next turn, and though it would require CEL/PRE, that's not exactly a tricky combination to find on midcaps - and you may well want the PRE for some bleed or vote payload. Distraction (1 blood) is less long-lasting but combos similarly. Potentially combos well with Zephyr (free) as a way to try to draw out blocks, then go in for something killer.
That's the part that concerns me most. It's not just negating a Wake. It could easily be negating a Wake followed by an Eagle Sight followed by a Precognition followed by a Spirit's Touch. Getting essentially a "block fails" effect and precluding other tapped vampires from waking to block seems quite potent, compared to Call of the Hungry Dead or Elder Impersonation. If it was an up-front "Play when the action is announced", I'd have fewer concerns.
Replied by jamesatzephyr on topic Re: [Submission] Speed Demon (cel untap + no wake usable for tap'n'whatever)
[CEL] [ACTION MODIFIER] Tapped minions cannot block this action.
This text doesn't actually achieve what you want it to do. See the original text on The Sleeping Mind, where this text was regarded as re-stating the basic rule and didn't actually change anything. [LSJ 20010110]
However, assuming it were reworded to do what you want...
Tap and Bleed would probably receive a fairly significant shot in the arm. Misdirection and Anarch Troublemaker are easily played to tap out vampires. Anarch Troublemaker can be played well in advance and held for later. Have an Anarch Troublemaker in play already and then lunge with Pentex Subversion/Misdirection and this and you can be potentially doing a lot of damage.
Mind Numb (1 blood) combos fairly well with this, because it can not only tap a vampire this turn, but it can keep them tapped next turn, and though it would require CEL/PRE, that's not exactly a tricky combination to find on midcaps - and you may well want the PRE for some bleed or vote payload. Distraction (1 blood) is less long-lasting but combos similarly. Potentially combos well with Zephyr (free) as a way to try to draw out blocks, then go in for something killer.
(Just to make it clear: superior effect negates the effect of "wake" cards, and can be used after the reacting minion has played a wake, and inferior is not a "wake" effect and can't be negated by itself
That's the part that concerns me most. It's not just negating a Wake. It could easily be negating a Wake followed by an Eagle Sight followed by a Precognition followed by a Spirit's Touch. Getting essentially a "block fails" effect and precluding other tapped vampires from waking to block seems quite potent, compared to Call of the Hungry Dead or Elder Impersonation. If it was an up-front "Play when the action is announced", I'd have fewer concerns.
16 Dec 2014 13:47 - 16 Dec 2014 13:49 #68211
by Ankha
). There are three effects:
1/ rulebook: "Who May Attempt to Block: If the action targets one or more other Methuselahs (or things controlled by other Methuselahs), then the action is called directed, and only the Methuselahs who are targeted (or control the targets) may use their ready untapped minions to attempt to block the action (going clockwise from the acting Methuselah, as usual). "
2/ wake effect: "This reacting minion can play reaction cards and attempt to block as though untapped until the current action is concluded."
3/ Speed Demon effect: "Tapped minions cannot block this action"
So 2/ adds the reacting minion to the set of minions eligible to block defined by 1/
3/ on the other hand actively forbids tapped minions from blocking.
As always, "cannot" effects prevail on "can" effects (that's why a tapped minion under pentex can't play a Second Tradition for instance).
So maybe:
[CEL] [ACTION MODIFIER] Cancel a reacting card that allows to block as if untapped as it is played; its cost is not paid. The reacting minion can't play other reaction cards this action.
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: [Submission] Speed Demon (cel untap + no wake usable for tap'n'whatever)
That's not how I see it (aka LSJ can be wrong too
[CEL] [ACTION MODIFIER] Tapped minions cannot block this action.
This text doesn't actually achieve what you want it to do. See the original text on The Sleeping Mind, where this text was regarded as re-stating the basic rule and didn't actually change anything. [LSJ 20010110]
However, assuming it were reworded to do what you want...
). There are three effects:1/ rulebook: "Who May Attempt to Block: If the action targets one or more other Methuselahs (or things controlled by other Methuselahs), then the action is called directed, and only the Methuselahs who are targeted (or control the targets) may use their ready untapped minions to attempt to block the action (going clockwise from the acting Methuselah, as usual). "
2/ wake effect: "This reacting minion can play reaction cards and attempt to block as though untapped until the current action is concluded."
3/ Speed Demon effect: "Tapped minions cannot block this action"
So 2/ adds the reacting minion to the set of minions eligible to block defined by 1/
3/ on the other hand actively forbids tapped minions from blocking.
As always, "cannot" effects prevail on "can" effects (that's why a tapped minion under pentex can't play a Second Tradition for instance).
Probably, but Celerity isn't a bleed discipline. It would be used in that case as a support discipline, meaning youre playing dom+ CEL vampires for instance (which is more difficult). The discipline requirement makes it more balanced.Tap and Bleed would probably receive a fairly significant shot in the arm. Misdirection and Anarch Troublemaker are easily played to tap out vampires. Anarch Troublemaker can be played well in advance and held for later. Have an Anarch Troublemaker in play already and then lunge with Pentex Subversion/Misdirection and this and you can be potentially doing a lot of damage.
Playing it "as the action is announced" on the other hand would be harsh if you intend to play it with Form of Mist. But I understand it may be too strong if it negates the intercept the player has generated after the wake.Mind Numb (1 blood) combos fairly well with this, because it can not only tap a vampire this turn, but it can keep them tapped next turn, and though it would require CEL/PRE, that's not exactly a tricky combination to find on midcaps - and you may well want the PRE for some bleed or vote payload. Distraction (1 blood) is less long-lasting but combos similarly. Potentially combos well with Zephyr (free) as a way to try to draw out blocks, then go in for something killer.
(Just to make it clear: superior effect negates the effect of "wake" cards, and can be used after the reacting minion has played a wake, and inferior is not a "wake" effect and can't be negated by itself
That's the part that concerns me most. It's not just negating a Wake. It could easily be negating a Wake followed by an Eagle Sight followed by a Precognition followed by a Spirit's Touch. Getting essentially a "block fails" effect and precluding other tapped vampires from waking to block seems quite potent, compared to Call of the Hungry Dead or Elder Impersonation. If it was an up-front "Play when the action is announced", I'd have fewer concerns.
So maybe:
[CEL] [ACTION MODIFIER] Cancel a reacting card that allows to block as if untapped as it is played; its cost is not paid. The reacting minion can't play other reaction cards this action.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Time to create page: 0.086 seconds
- You are here:
-
Home
-
Forum
-
V:TES Discussion
-
Expansion Sets & Card Ideas
- [Submission] Speed Demon (cel untap + no wake usable for tap'n'whatever)