[Submission] Speed Demon (cel untap + no wake usable for tap'n'whatever)

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Ankha wrote:

That's not how I see it

Good for you. You're still, however, wrong.

Did God speak? Is that all? There's no need to find whether there's a flaw in my reasoning, right?
It's not that simple because Pascal thinks I'm right. But let's consider the whole thing again (it's a bit clearer for me too):

Subject 1) Was the text on Sleeping Mind a reminder text? Does it matter?
LSJ says "It was redundant - the basic rules provide that functionality". So he considered it as a reminder text and therefore removed it. It also means he considered that the designer intend wasn't to prevent from blocking under a "wake" effect, or that he didn't care altering its effect.

Does it matter? Yes. A rule stated in a cardtext (that is not a reminder) is not the same as a rule stated in the rulebook because it's not overriden the same way.
For instance, if rulebook says "A cannot do B" and a cardtext says "A can do B", cardtext takes precedence (1.4 "Golden rule of card"). Now if two cards effects are at odds with one another, the "cannot" effect takes precedence (I have to find the reference to this to be complete.)

Subject 2) To which extend is a minion under a wake effect considered as being untapped or not for purpose of blocking and playing reaction cards?
This is the core of the subject. Is "Speed Demon" seeing tapped minions under a wake effect as tapped?
Wake states: "This reacting minion can play reaction cards and attempt to block as though (or as if) untapped until the current action is concluded." (both form exist, they are equivalent).
Speed Demon (or Sleeping Mind in the old time ) states "Tapped minions cannot block this action".

I'll consider Wake's second effect first, "This reacting minion can attempt to block as though untapped". What is does is to widen the set of eligible minions that can block. (rule 6.2.2.1 "Who May Attempt to Block").

Could we also say that for blocking purpose, he is globally considered untapped, and therefore Speed Demon doesn't see it as a "tapped" minion?
To infirme this, let's consider wake's first effect.

Wake's first effect supersedes the rulebook rule 1.6.3.6 "A ready untapped minion can play a reaction card in response...". As previously, can we consider that for all the purpose of resolving the reaction card, he is considered untapped?
If so, it would mean that it would be possible to play a reaction card that says "tap to..." with a tapped minion (eg. Babble). Which is currently not the case (source: LSJ ).

So it would be contradictory: Babble doesn't see the reacting minion as untapped, but Speed Demon would?

PS: for clarification, Pascal says that wake effects should read "{even though} tapped" instead of "{as if} untapped".

I give up. Why bother spending an hour writting a full reasoning with sources and an explicit though process?
I was hoping for something like "no, look, your premise A is wrong" or "hmm, indeed there's something weird". Or no answer at all if you don't have time after all.

What pities me is that you do have time to drop by, write a few authoritative unargumented lines (thus my reference to God) and jump on a troll-bait (the same reference to God). I'm certain it doesn't make the forum a better place.