Group 5 !Nos Ideas

About Vaden's special: I would assume that cards like Bonding (cards that grant +stealth with another effect attached) would still follow the rules of what the action was. You could play Bonding with Vaden, and he would get +1 bleed with the +1 stealth... but since he isn't bleeding the +bleed effect is wasted. Other timing restrictions and requirements still apply, but does this effect need that reminder text?

For example, you could play Forgotten Labyrinth with Vaden's ability, since Forgotten Labyrinth says, "Not usable during a bleed action." Since attempting to block is not a bleed action, the card is playable. However, you couldn't play Hag's Wrinkles with Vaden's special, as that card specifies "Only usable during an equip action." Same goes with Marked Path, since that specifies, "Only usable after a successful action."

But obviously his ability is suppose to turn Lost In Crowds / Shadow Play into Enhanced Senses.

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As an aside, I recall ReverendRevolver mocking-up canon vampires that have yet to appear in the game. However, most of those vampires had no special, so I want to know: is the community opposed to specials? I think every vampire should get a special, even if extremely narrow or corner-case, or even drawbacks (in the case of weenies) just to make them a little more interesting. Would this be considered power-creep?

I do agree that cool specials are very fun. However, from game design perspective, we have to be careful to not break the game with some new releases.

LivesByProxy wrote:

Winston Walsh
Sabbat. Archbishop of Charleston.

You may begin the game with Winston Walsh in your uncontrolled region (in addition to your other uncontrolled minions.) Winston gets +1 bleed against any Methuselah who controls a titled Camarilla vampire.

Anyone else think that running tons of these in a vote deck that votes honor the elders would be broken? No? I think having a starting crypt of 10 or so vampires and honor elders seem somewhat good.. Manipulating your crypt in this fashion is a potentially super strong ability. I would test extensively and probably say no.
Honor the elders for 10x4 blood or so and then kaymakli nightmares all that 40ish blood into your pool seems good..
The only way to make this playable is to have a line like "you may only include one Winston Walsh in your crypt" to go with it. You should also be forced to reveal Winston Walsh at the beginning of the game when you move him to starting crypt, to ensure that you are not cheating.

The whole "you may begin the game with" line of abilities is something that is potentially interesting however and worth exploring.

Copperhead
Sabbat.

If Copperhead is diablerized, and the acting vampire has Serpentis, that vampire gains 1 level of Serpentis. Otherwise, that vampire burns 2 blood.

k

Biter
Sabbat. Nosferatu Antitribu Slave.

Biter cannot act except to enter combat. He is immune to strikes to end combat. At the end of any turn, if he is not at full capacity, move 1 blood from a Nosferatu Antitribu you control to him. If you can't, he diablerizes a ready vampire you control at random.

Cute, but too dangerous to use. Read: too weak.

Imalia
Sabbat. Black Hand.

Imalia gets +1 strength vs Toreador or Toreador Antitribu. She gets +1 strength vs female ♀ vampires.

Unfortunately using an identifier that is not printed in our cards (male/female) is not gonna fly. There are too many fringe cases (tzimisce, blood brothers, etc) so this would create too much confusion.

Thelma
Sabbat. Archbishop of Charlotte.

Thelma can call a referendum to force each Methuselah to draw 1 card from their crypt as a +1 stealth political action. If successful, your prey also moves 3 pool to that card.

WAYYYY too strong. An archbishop with superior obf that has an inbuilt KRC as an ability? Ridiculous. If you remove the pool damage aspect then it would be ok and drop down to curiosity level. Or if the pool change was something like 1.

Dalton "Duke" Duvoire
Anarch. Baron of Nashville.

Duke can play cards as though he were a Sabbat Archbishop.

Probably ok

Vaden
Sabbat. Cardinal.

When Vaden attempts to block your predator or prey's vampires, his stealth counts as though it were intercept. He can play action modifier cards that grant stealth as though they were reaction cards. +1 bleed. +1 stealth.

This wording needs work, but on theory level his ability is possibly ok for a 10 cap.
I was going to suggest similar wording to what Jamesatzephyr gave, but he was faster.

Marcy Gray
Sabbat.

When you move Marcy from your uncontrolled region to you ready region during your influence phase, you may equip her with a Baseball Bat, Leather Jacket, and/or Sports Bike from your hand (pay cost as normal).

Cute, with potential to be used. Pot+Fort is a strong combo.

Gnat
Sabbat.

If Gnat takes any damage, burn him. Gnat may enter combat with any 11 capacity vampire as a action. Lock that vampire after combat if Gnat is still ready.

This not only weak, but also unflavorful. Why would a vampire burn at first encounter with another vampire?

LivesByProxy wrote:

As an aside, I recall ReverendRevolver mocking-up canon vampires that have yet to appear in the game. However, most of those vampires had no special, so I want to know: is the community opposed to specials? I think every vampire should get a special, even if extremely narrow or corner-case, or even drawbacks (in the case of weenies) just to make them a little more interesting. Would this be considered power-creep

If they're well-costed, it wouldn't be power creep.

I don't think anyone objects to specials on principle, if they're good. But specials can fall into a bunch of different categories.(*)

Some are barely specials now, in the sense that they're so common they're just sort of another things that vampires get - +1 bleed or conditional +1 bleed, extra strength against certain traits, that sort of thing. They can be a good way of making a vampire more useful, without necessarily having to hand out more disciplines.

Some more 'bespoke' specials can really drive a whole deck. e.g. Anson, Anneke etc. However, it is worth thinking about how they contribute to a whole deck. There are a bunch of vampires out there who look cool in isolation, but where there just isn't really the support around them to sustain a good deck. When they work, things in this sort of category can be really cool, though.

There are other situations where the best "special" you might do is actually to give the clan in that group/group pair a decent set of disciplines, possibly including a splash of a useful off-clan discipline, some synergy, and maybe some titles. Rather than spending some notional design points on a press special for a vampire who's not got the support around her to really do anything interesting in a combat deck (for example), making her a bishop, that dude over there Archbishop of Truth or Consequences , and that dude a Priscus, while splashing in some AUS for Telepathic Vote Counting (and Telepathic Misdirection) or Serpentis for Velvet Tongue... Taking that altogether might actually give you a much more vibrant and coherent deck than any number of slightly off-the-wall specials.


Also, disadvantages often don't work very well. They tend to end up in two camps:
- the disadvantage isn't much of one because you just construct your deck to avoid relevant scenarios coming up very frequently so it isn't really worth all that much (e.g. you don't construct a run of the mill Assamite deck so that it depends on diablerie in any way), or
- the disadvantage is annoying enough that you don't use them.

Hitting the sweet spot of "this is annoying, but still worth using" is hard. Tariq, maybe? Outside of a few like that, I tend to think the best disadvantages we have are some of the rules-based ones, like Infernal or Scarce, where the whole design of a bloodline and their unique discipline is built around it. Daimoinon or Obeah can be more powerful than ordinary disciplines, because of the extra difficulties around using them well. When you have an ordinary Nosferatu antitribu who happens to have a significant disadvantage, it's difficult to get that counter balance because the cards provided his ordinary, non-bloodline disciplines don't have the extra oomph of Daimoinon etc. Or you do splash him something like that - a bit of Temporis, or whatever - and then you face the same issue as with any unusual special: do you have a coherent deck at the end of it?



(*) I'm not saying that I'm enumerating all of them. Just a bunch of obvious ones.

I like special text. I'm pretty sure everyone does, but I definitely don't want to see it on every damn vamp.

I don't like how Magic put more focus into creature effects over spell effects either.

You pay for those specials, so if they don't fit your deck concept, it just makes it more costly to bring out minions. A good disciple spread is like it's own special text.

Edit: that being said, I do like some of these ideas

LivesByProxy wrote:

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As an aside, I recall ReverendRevolver mocking-up canon vampires that have yet to appear in the game. However, most of those vampires had no special, so I want to know: is the community opposed to specials? I think every vampire should get a special, even if extremely narrow or corner-case, or even drawbacks (in the case of weenies) just to make them a little more interesting. Would this be considered power-creep?

I'm not anti-specials, the vampires I submitted were deliberately vanilla vamps unless there was a clear and helpful special based upon something in the sourcebook. Why?
Vanilla vamps are handy in starter type products, and since that whole project started as me looking to draft up stuff for potential Cam entry level decks, text boxes with no abilities are cleanest for this purpose, followed by just titles and "+1 bleed, intercept, strength" stuff, followed by conditional "+1 against political actions, infernal minions, allies, etc". Again, unless I had a compelling fluff related special spring to mind.
Also, these aren't MY vampires (like from a vtm chronicles or something) they're Canon VTM ones, so are a greater benefit to the community as a whole if I shove a batch of unused stuff out there and other people who have solid ideas for specials (like this thread is built around originally) so if something really cool pops up, BC readily can utilize it.

@Klaital:
Forget Spleen. Deliberately omitted Fidai'i(fidai'is, fidai'ous, fidai'pi?) Because they're Assamite Abbt Kindred or Valkyrie and only lead to sadness....

I agree that a good or cool discipline spread is a 'special' in its own way. I also agree that starter products should have simple and easy specials, not a paragraph of text like Smallpox Griet.

Regarding comparisons to Magic, what I absolutely don't want to see is something like a 5 Cap with , 2 votes, and +2 bleed, which is what Wizards of the Coast tends to do. They print cards that are drastically over-powered for their cost with ludicrous abilities, and then justify it by using the rarity system. The result: an inflated secondary market and a lot of card-board trash (90% of commons and uncommons).

@BloodArtist: The goal with Winston Walsh was that you'd only include 1 of him in your crypt because he was guaranteed to be in your starting uncontrolled region. I didn't know about Kaymakli Nightmares. The potential combo you mention is so cheesy, even if I knew of Kay-Nightmares I wouldn't have thought of it. I thought Biter was too strong - I know Beast (Leatherface) is strong, I mixed him with Toy. Would Thelma's special be OK if it were printed as a political action card? Gnat is suppose to be a very fragile but annoying vampire (named after the insect: a person or thing seen as tiny or insignificant, especially in comparison with something larger or more important.)