file Cerebral Resequencing [Protean]

06 Jan 2019 03:43 #92658 by LivesByProxy
Can one of you list cards that cancel bounce? I looked and only found a handful, mostly Masters or disciplineless.
This card could be more similar to Shape Mastery, with the inferior Pro option cancelling inferior Aus, Chi, Dem, and Dom combat cards. The superior Pro oprion could cancel reactions requiring those disciplines.

That would leave bounce requiring superiors open.

:gang: :CEL: :FOR: :PRO: :cap6: Gangrel. Noddist. Camarilla. Once each turn, LivesByProxy may burn 1 blood to lose Protean :PRO: until the end of the turn and gain your choice of superior Auspex :AUS:, Obfuscate :OBF:, or Potence :POT: for the current action.

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06 Jan 2019 09:33 - 06 Jan 2019 09:37 #92659 by Kraus
From the top of my head:

Auspex cancel
False Resonance :chi:
Hide the Mind :OBF:
I am Legion :DAI:

Dominate cancel
Perfect Clarity :THA:
Touch of Clarity :dem:

Young vamp reaction
Approximation of Loyalty :PRE:

There are more that do cancel bounce either through abilities (Mithras) or only for defense (Power of All, Two Wrongs). The 10-cap combo of Direct Intervention and Enkil Cog is available to any 10 or 11 cap. Some do it better of course.

Note that not all of those are strictly 'cancel', but work around the bounce (Two Wrongs) or deny them completely (Perfect Clarity).

There are quite a few options for bounce cancel already.

It could be debated if bounce cancel should've been given to Obfuscate or Dementation, but they're there. Chimestry is definitely a nice place to have one, as is Daimonion, as they are weirded and much more rare. But, I feel, that is a whole can of worms, and would spark a debate of dozens of pages, and that probably shouldn't be this topic. :) If you want anything constructive out of this here.

Notice that while Baali are probably the best in bounce cancel shenanigans (I did play a Nergal deck that focused completely on denying bounce in EC, Warsaw, on friday. The deck shows promise), Petaniqua is the only one that can play ALL of the cards above. Not that she needs it. But she doesn't have the same bleed synergy built in that other Baali have.

That said, I think you already had some nice ideas previously that do pool damage with Protean without relying on the bleed mechanic (not bounceable), or had other interesting ways of working around bounce. Flat cancel given to one of the best overall delivery disciplines in the game (rivaling Obfuscate, for sure, occasionally being better) is not what should be included in the game at the moment.

I would love to see more synergy and power with mid-cap Gangrel and !Gangrel, but giving them bounce cancel isn't what those clans do or need. Those cards just would be more played and much more powerful somewhere else, mainly big cap power bleeds.

I get what you are trying to do with the 'shape mastery' angle. But isn't Protean strictly physical in its powers? Dominate, Dementation, Chimestry and Presence, to name a few, are wholeheartedly psychic or mental in their powers. It feels that Protean should be able to 'counter' physical abilities to fit the theme better, so Potence, Viscissitude, Quietus, I dunno. I'm not that well in-the-know of the discipline lore.

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Last edit: 06 Jan 2019 09:37 by Kraus.
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06 Jan 2019 10:34 #92660 by Mateusz
Not really a cancel for bounce, but at least punishing it is "Narrow Minds" (Event)

If you fear that this card would only make Stanislava and other Big caps even stronger, what about restricting it to vampires with capacity max of 7?

"Renegade Garou, can do!"

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06 Jan 2019 12:48 - 06 Jan 2019 12:52 #92661 by Kraus
I can't think of a thematic reason for this, Mateusz; in WoD vampires and their abilities only grow stronger as they grow older. Thematically restricting discipline cards for younger vampires only seems a bit unintuitive.

There's been discussion about restricting some newer electronic equipment or such contemporary real world effects or themes to younger vampires, and that would make sense and even be kinda cool. Disciplines are a wholly different matter though.

If someone would want to do something for Gangrels, and tie it into the hacker theme some vamps have been going for, you could do something like:

"Only if you have an electronic equipment (or Laptop, specifically) and bleeding with Computer Hacking; cancel a reaction that would change the target of this bleed. Requires a clan or three. Only usable by a vampire with capacity 5 or less."


If you're hacking, others can't use dominate on you, ya?

"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise

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Last edit: 06 Jan 2019 12:52 by Kraus.

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06 Jan 2019 18:20 #92664 by Kushiel

Bounce is one big element on why games take so long.


A class of cards which increase the likelihood of successful bleeds, thereby removing pool from the table, are the reason that games take so long?

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06 Jan 2019 22:25 #92670 by jamesatzephyr

Cerebral Resequencing
Action Modifier :modifier:
Only usable during a bleed action.
:pro: Cancel the effects of a reaction card requiring Auspex :aus:, Chimerstry :chi: , or Dementation :dem:, or Dominate :dom: as it is played. That card cannot be played again this action.
:PRO: As above, but cancel the effects of a reaction card requiring the superior level of any of those Disciplines (i.e. :AUS:, :CHI:, :DEM:, or :DOM:). If a card effect is cancelled this way, this acting minion gets +1 bleed.


Textual niggle: if you want the inferior to only cancel cards requiring those disciplines at inferior, you need to make that more explicit. As currently phrased, the inferior cancels cards that require Auspex at basic or superior - since a reaction card played with superior Auspex requires Auspex.

e.g. Ossian cares about people who've played superior Aura Reading, Permanency cares about actions that were played with superior Auspex, Sleep Unseen at basic restricts vampires with either basic or superior Auspex (not just basic) etc.
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