file Cerebral Resequencing [Protean]

30 Jan 2019 12:20 - 30 Jan 2019 12:26 #93217 by Kraus

See the difference between 'attempting to block' and 'succesfully blocks'. When the action is blocked NRA kicks in.

Out of curiosity, where can I find this rule? Rulebook or a general ruling somewhere? A quick check didn't result in anything.

This affects how Red Herring works as well.


Name: Red Herring
[FN:C2/PR]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Chimerstry
[chi] Only usable when this acting vampire is blocked. Unlock the acting vampire, do not lock the blocking minion, and cancel the current action and combat. Take the card played to perform the action (if any) back into your hand. Your vampires cannot attempt the same action again this turn. Discard down to your hand size.
[CHI] As above, but lock the blocking minion.
Artist: Michael Gaydos

"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
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Last edit: 30 Jan 2019 12:26 by Kraus.

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30 Jan 2019 14:11 #93218 by jamesatzephyr

See the difference between 'attempting to block' and 'succesfully blocks'. When the action is blocked NRA kicks in.

Out of curiosity, where can I find this rule? Rulebook or a general ruling somewhere? A quick check didn't result in anything.


Many, many, many, many rulings over time.

A lot come out of Mask of a Thousand Faces and the NRA tournament floor rule. If you have Vampire A and Vampire B, and Vampire A starts the bleed action and Vampire B Masks it off them. Because Vampire A was not acting when the action resolved (successfully or not), Vampire A is free to bleed again - or whatever other action would be affected by the NRA floor rule (as it was) or the current rulebook-based version of the rule. (The current rules are not the same as the old floor rules.)

The thread in www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/40821-change-of-target-nra , and Pascal's message on the second page, covers a lot of ground specifically with regards Change of Target.

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30 Jan 2019 14:17 #93219 by jamesatzephyr

See the difference between 'attempting to block' and 'succesfully blocks'. When the action is blocked NRA kicks in.In it's original printing, Psychomachia was with same text as Tangle, but that was quickly errated to the current version.


Even ignoring the no-repeat taint, they are clearly very different cards, because of the requirement for a successful block.

Me: I bleed you for 3 with Govern the Unaligned.
My prey: Gadzooks, that sounds horrible. I attempt to block with Bobby McBobson.
Me: I play Lost in Crowds for +2 stealth.
My prey: Bobby plays Enhanced Senses for +2 intercept.
Me: I play Swallowed by the Night for another stealth!
My prey: Blimey O' riley, that's harsh. My block attempt fails.
Me: I play Conditioning to make that a bleed for a 6.
My prey: I play Deflection, and you are now bleeding my prey.
My grand-prey: Um, er, Poppy Lampshade attempts to block your +3 stealth action.

At this point, I can play Tangle Atropos' Hand. Therefore, if my grand-prey has an untapped minion, I can bleed somewhat irresponsibly and make up for it if I get bounced. (Probably. DI is still a thing, of course.)

I cannot play Psychomachia, unless Poppy Lampshade can generate +3 intercept.


Hence, they don't fulfil the same game function, and this is why I think TAH needs a reprint.
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30 Jan 2019 14:27 - 30 Jan 2019 14:40 #93220 by Kraus

See the difference between 'attempting to block' and 'succesfully blocks'. When the action is blocked NRA kicks in.

Out of curiosity, where can I find this rule? Rulebook or a general ruling somewhere? A quick check didn't result in anything.


Many, many, many, many rulings over time.

A lot come out of Mask of a Thousand Faces and the NRA tournament floor rule. If you have Vampire A and Vampire B, and Vampire A starts the bleed action and Vampire B Masks it off them. Because Vampire A was not acting when the action resolved (successfully or not), Vampire A is free to bleed again - or whatever other action would be affected by the NRA floor rule (as it was) or the current rulebook-based version of the rule. (The current rules are not the same as the old floor rules.)

The thread in www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/40821-change-of-target-nra , and Pascal's message on the second page, covers a lot of ground specifically with regards Change of Target.

Thanks.

Considering there are a few cards (all powerful) that use same words with slight changes, it hurts my head that I can't make this conclusion with the rulebook and card texts alone. Or with General rulings on this site. When Tangle is used compared to Red Herrings is used is crystal clear - why the other washes off NRA taint and the other doesn't isn't.

It's just weird, because there are numerous ways for an action NOT to reach it conclusion or resolution when blocked. Many cards and effects might continue the action even after block.

I take your word for it though, of course.

Is there anything explicit on the NRA and resolution in the rulebook? I couldn't find anything. It, of course, would be ideal if we would be able to reach the same conclusions with tools easily available (rulebook, card text, general rulings on VEKN), instead of "Because it's said so" in 2012.

This is very good to know. I didn't before now.

"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise

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Last edit: 30 Jan 2019 14:40 by Kraus.

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30 Jan 2019 14:50 #93221 by jamesatzephyr

Is there anything explicit on the NRA and resolution in the rulebook?


The basic premise in the rulebook is that the vampire can't "perform" certain actions more than once. If you don't reach either successful or unsuccessful resolution (such as Mask-ing, such as TAH), that's not counted as having "performed" the bleed action, or political action etc. - but I agree that it would be helpful if it was clearer.
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30 Jan 2019 15:05 #93223 by Kraus

Is there anything explicit on the NRA and resolution in the rulebook?


The basic premise in the rulebook is that the vampire can't "perform" certain actions more than once. If you don't reach either successful or unsuccessful resolution (such as Mask-ing, such as TAH), that's not counted as having "performed" the bleed action, or political action etc. - but I agree that it would be helpful if it was clearer.

And still that doesn't really refer to being 'blocked' as being a resolution in of itself. As we know, action could continue after blocks, and there's still combat to resolve - after which plenty of cards can be played at the end of the action.

"Performing" doesn't really tell us much.

But yes. It could - and should - be clearer. Thankfully we have you guys to dig up the old rulings. I really wouldn't know where and with what keywords to look for most of the time. :)

"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise

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