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file Optimal seatings changes

07 Nov 2014 14:04 - 07 Nov 2014 14:05 #67306 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Optimal seatings changes
Hmpf. I've rewritten a faster algorithm, and discovered that there was a better seating for

17 players: 9 16 11 6 10 | 13 3 7 1 | 4 8 2 14 | 5 12 17 15
Rule 2 KO.
Rule 3 KO. Absolute deviation is: 0,5 => 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 9, 10, 11, 16 have 9 VP | 7, 8, 12, 13, 14, 15, 17 have 8 VP
(Current seating has a the same absolute deviation)
Rule 8 KO. Absolute deviation is: 0,311418685121107 => 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 16 have 5 transfers | 15 have 6 transfers | 17 have 7 transfers
(Current seating has an absolute deviation of 0.93)

So it's the best of the two worlds.
Prince of Paris, France
File Attachment:
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 07 Nov 2014 14:05 by Ankha.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Lönkka

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12 Nov 2014 14:07 - 12 Nov 2014 14:07 #67367 by Timo
Replied by Timo on topic Re: Optimal seatings changes
I was looking for hese famous "rules" and was amazed to find that i was not allowed to have a player be twice in the 5th seat but nothing prevented a player to be twice in the 1st seat.

I don't understand he reason behind this rule.

What I understand in here that LSJ considered (back in 2002) that 5th was the worst place.

I disagree ! IMO, 1st is the worst case scenario 1 alone transfer is meaningless in most deck because you can't influence out a meaningfull vampire with only 1 transfer (I mean except in dedicated decks like LOP or DBR).

So why forbidding a player being 5th twice while allowing a player to be 1st twice.

And in the case of a 5 players tournament, we have player 2 being 1st twice and 2nd the 3rd time (for a cumulative total of 4 transfers in his firt turns) while player 4 have 12 transfers being 4th twice and 5th the 3rd time !!

I found this to be strange...

So what is your view of it ?
Last edit: 12 Nov 2014 14:07 by Timo.

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12 Nov 2014 22:01 - 12 Nov 2014 22:05 #67375 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Optimal seatings changes

I was looking for hese famous "rules" and was amazed to find that i was not allowed to have a player be twice in the 5th seat but nothing prevented a player to be twice in the 1st seat.

Rule 7 prevents it:

7. A player doesn't play in the same seat position, if possible.

Interesting link anyway (I understand at least what "NOAL" means, thought it was something like "no alignment" :D)

Anyway, since the goal is to distribute equitably transfers, you can't be first then second for instance.

Being 5th is worse than being 4th. But I don't know if it's worse than being first. I remember lost game because I was always one turn late vs my predator.
Prince of Paris, France
File Attachment:
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 12 Nov 2014 22:05 by Ankha.

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13 Nov 2014 08:36 #67381 by Timo
Replied by Timo on topic Re: Optimal seatings changes
Ok, it is debatable if 5th is better or worse than 1st.

But actually, it IS debatable... Which also means that there is a criteria which prevent one of those starting place to be duplicated while the other can be (and is).

Why should it stay like that ?

Is it possible to review these "rules" ? (and maybe update them).

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13 Nov 2014 08:43 - 13 Nov 2014 08:43 #67382 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Optimal seatings changes

Ok, it is debatable if 5th is better or worse than 1st.

But actually, it IS debatable... Which also means that there is a criteria which prevent one of those starting place to be duplicated while the other can be (and is).

No. If possible, seating positions can't be duplicated. Or I don't understand what you're saying.

Why should it stay like that ?

Moot because your premise is wrong.
Prince of Paris, France
File Attachment:
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 13 Nov 2014 08:43 by Ankha.

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13 Nov 2014 08:49 #67383 by Timo
Replied by Timo on topic Re: Optimal seatings changes
The rules I found in the link above are these ones :

1. No pair of players repeat their predator-prey relationship. This is mandatory, by the VEKN rules.
2. No pair of players share a table through all three rounds, when possible.

3. Available VPs are equitably distributed.
4. No pair of players share a table more often than necessary.
5. A player doesn't sit in the fifth seat more than once.
6. No pair of players repeat the same relative position[*], when possible.
7. A player doesn't play in the same seat position, if possible.

8. Starting transfers are equitably distributed. [NOAL]
9. No pair of players repeat the same relative position group[^], when possible.


And we have rule 5 who is considered more important than rule 7 which have an "if possible" in it.

I was speacking about that.

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