file Optimal seatings changes

12 Nov 2014 22:01 - 12 Nov 2014 22:05 #67375 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Optimal seatings changes

I was looking for hese famous "rules" and was amazed to find that i was not allowed to have a player be twice in the 5th seat but nothing prevented a player to be twice in the 1st seat.

Rule 7 prevents it:

7. A player doesn't play in the same seat position, if possible.

Interesting link anyway (I understand at least what "NOAL" means, thought it was something like "no alignment" :D)

Anyway, since the goal is to distribute equitably transfers, you can't be first then second for instance.

Being 5th is worse than being 4th. But I don't know if it's worse than being first. I remember lost game because I was always one turn late vs my predator.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 12 Nov 2014 22:05 by Ankha.

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13 Nov 2014 08:36 #67381 by Timo
Replied by Timo on topic Re: Optimal seatings changes
Ok, it is debatable if 5th is better or worse than 1st.

But actually, it IS debatable... Which also means that there is a criteria which prevent one of those starting place to be duplicated while the other can be (and is).

Why should it stay like that ?

Is it possible to review these "rules" ? (and maybe update them).

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13 Nov 2014 08:43 - 13 Nov 2014 08:43 #67382 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Optimal seatings changes

Ok, it is debatable if 5th is better or worse than 1st.

But actually, it IS debatable... Which also means that there is a criteria which prevent one of those starting place to be duplicated while the other can be (and is).

No. If possible, seating positions can't be duplicated. Or I don't understand what you're saying.

Why should it stay like that ?

Moot because your premise is wrong.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 13 Nov 2014 08:43 by Ankha.

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13 Nov 2014 08:49 #67383 by Timo
Replied by Timo on topic Re: Optimal seatings changes
The rules I found in the link above are these ones :

1. No pair of players repeat their predator-prey relationship. This is mandatory, by the VEKN rules.
2. No pair of players share a table through all three rounds, when possible.

3. Available VPs are equitably distributed.
4. No pair of players share a table more often than necessary.
5. A player doesn't sit in the fifth seat more than once.
6. No pair of players repeat the same relative position[*], when possible.
7. A player doesn't play in the same seat position, if possible.

8. Starting transfers are equitably distributed. [NOAL]
9. No pair of players repeat the same relative position group[^], when possible.


And we have rule 5 who is considered more important than rule 7 which have an "if possible" in it.

I was speacking about that.

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13 Nov 2014 09:42 #67384 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Optimal seatings changes

The rules I found in the link above are these ones :

5. A player doesn't sit in the fifth seat more than once.
7. A player doesn't play in the same seat position, if possible.

Currently (for seatings up to 23), rule 7 has never been violated: it was always possible to seat the player in another position.
This is also enforced by the fact that in order to have the best distribution of transfers, a player can't seat twice at the same position.

So, there's no need right now to change rule 7 or 5: rule 7 is a superset of rule 5 and the "if possible" clause has never been broken.


Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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13 Nov 2014 10:20 - 13 Nov 2014 10:32 #67385 by Timo
Replied by Timo on topic Re: Optimal seatings changes
You are in your hunt for the best seating for 2R+F tournament.

But I was speaking of the seatings for 3R+F tournament where for 5 players tournaments, we have player 2 who play 2nd then 1st and 1st.

Without looking for extreme cases like 5 players tournaments, in 10 players tournaments, players 2 and 7 play twice in the second place and 3 and 8 twice in the 4th place.

EDIT : and in 15-players tournament, 3 and 8 play twice in the 3rd position

(I will not check furher because i is obviously less likely to happen and I do that "manually" checking the tables in the archon (1.5c which I downloaded yesterday here in vekn.net)
Last edit: 13 Nov 2014 10:32 by Timo.

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