Should the VEKN officially sanction printed proxies?

Hello! On my blog, I recently wrote an article about the availability of cards. Or rather, the lack of availability. It's a real problem for current players, and it completely prevents new players from getting involved. Today, I just released an article that is my best attempt to argue for why our community should embrace printed proxy cards of physical cards at all levels of play.

gamingwithbs.wordpress.com/2015/10/19/the-problem-with-card-availability-part-ii/

In this article, I argue that there are really three different ways that we could implement the idea of printed proxies, which I will briefly enumerate below. Please see the article for a more in depth discussion of each idea.

1) All cards are printed and printed cards are treated like physical cards at all levels of play.

2) A curated set (Fourth Edition, anybody?) of physical cards is created that represents the staple cards that we think all players should have access to, and any card on this set can be printed and used just like the physical card. Note that unlike previous suggestions for a Fourth Edition, this set would include no new cards, just digital versions of physical cards.

3) All cards with significant errata (Majesty, Misdirection, Concealed Weapon, Wake with Evening’s Freshness, Fifth Tradition: Hospitality, Rötschreck, Fame, Wooden Stake, and others) are put into a list where players can print these cards so that they have access to the most recent wording of these cards.

However, I wanted to make sure that this idea gets wider attention that just my blog, so I'm posting it here with the hopes that we can start a dialogue in our community about whether it is time to allow printed proxy cards to be legal. And, if we don't want to do that, how we are going to solve the card availability problem for new and current players alike. Thanks for your thoughts!

"Should the VEKN officially sanction printed proxies?"

If it in any way reduces the possibility of print of demand or a return to print (however slim the odds) then I don't believe they should. That is my only concern — I don't care about card value etc...

IMO only thing we should care is:
would it bring more players or maybe it will have negative impact on number of players because some people don't want to play with proxies. Without proper statistical survey (and pool on forum is not good for it) it's really hard to quess.

Ke. wrote:

If it in any way reduces the possibility of print of demand or a return to print (however slim the odds) then I don't believe they should. That is my only concern — I don't care about card value etc...

Well, I agree that sanctioning printed proxy cards would destroy the chance of POD - what incentive would any company have to open negotiations if their customers could just print the product for free? And I agree that POD would have been good for the game and would (likely) be preferable to printed proxies. But negotiations stalled two years ago, and they've shown no signs of being reinvigorated since. I'm honestly of the opinion that waiting for POD will lead to significantly greater damage to our game than abandoning the idea. It's time to cut our losses and move on.

alek wrote:

IMO only thing we should care is:
would it bring more players or maybe it will have negative impact on number of players because some people don't want to play with proxies. Without proper statistical survey (and pool on forum is not good for it) it's really hard to quess.

Well, I agree with your priorities. But are you suggesting that we can never really know the consequences of our actions, so we should never take any? As for the possibility of printed proxy cards having a negative effect (driving people away from the game), I find that highly unlikely. Printed cards are already welcome in most play groups for casual games (including every play group that I've been part of or heard about. but I write "most" because my sample size is small). The difference that I'm suggesting seems to be to be a very minor one. Simply saying that what everybody is already doing (printed proxies for casual events) is now ok at tournaments. We'd just be codifying a common practice.

But the benefits for a new player are immeasurable. Right now, getting access to staple cards is often a matter of getting lucky on Ebay.

Interesting topic and thanks for your blog, have been enjoying it.

You are absolutely right, the player base is on the decline, and has been for a long time now. In friendly games In our country we have had many players leave (many who had played since Jyhad), then sell everything or rares online, and/or to other players if they can get a price they are happy with.

I agree that we should allow clear well printed proxies in tournaments, as I also think that this would make this game more accessible to new interested players. Even though I prefer original cards myself to play with. As long as you can read the text and the print image is average I'm fine with it.

Many potential new players are surprised when finding out starter decks/boosters are not available via games shops, and often very expensive online when compared with other supported card games. Many are very reluctant to invest into a card game when they find out the price of starter decks, boosters or single cards via eBay. Additional negative factor for potential new players is how small the play group is due to many players investing in other accessible/populated games, selling their collection and joining some other game. I myself occasionally play other card games, yet vtes is still my favorite card game.However on and off throughout the last four years have thought about selling all or most of my collection due to the small amount of vtes players we have vs many other card games.

Like many of us remaining players, I have a very good/large collection, made up of purchased expansions, trades, single cards purchased online, and from buying many collections from leaving players. I don’t even want to think about the amount of money I have paid online singles. I could sell singles and do well, however I’d rather the money value of my whole collection be drastically reduced, or gamble with the chance of missing out on the seemingly slim chance Print On Demand ever happens, than to see the population of this great game continue to die and hinder the entry of new players.

I’ve been very impressed with the quality of the last two expansions, the developers/designers/artist/testers have done an great job. Which has not impacted negatively on myself, local group or our tournaments, in regards to having to print these cards out and sleeve them. In fact it has fueled more excitement about the future of this game for current players, breathed new life with a high standard of quality, providing more diversity for vtes veterans. However to new players, they still need basic fundamental cards, which proxy obviously allow.

While I understand many players/collectors may be very reluctant to allow proxies in torni’s due to the money/time they have invested into their collection, and the effect this would have on sales/card monetary value, maybe we could come up with suggestions on how we can increase player base and make cards more accessible for new players.