Should the VEKN officially sanction printed proxies?

Borrelstein wrote:

I think card availability is not really the problem, it is rather the steep learning curve and lack of active play groups that is the barrier for new players to enter competitive play.

No, I think you are wrong. Card availability is a huge problem. I would have started vtes a lot sooner if I could simply find the cards in physical stores like you can with magic/yugioh/pokemon/vanguard and every other self respecting card game.

Without physical cards/booster/expansions available in CCG stores, on display, people visiting those stores won't know vtes even exists. This means that one of the few people that still play vtes have to get people interested for a game that they never heard about, don't know the rules of and have to jump through 45 hoops to get cards from. POD still provides the barrier to entry, and so do the print them yourself expansions.
Try making vtes visible in physical places were other CCG players buy their stuff, because if they don't know it exists they will definitely not go on the internet to search for 4hrs trying to find a dealer that still has cards and can ship them to their door at regular retail price (Very VERY uncommon).

Similarly, I advocate trying to get vtes 2nd hand sales to move to a more visible platform like: www.magiccardmarket.eu/ so that when people browse cards for the games they do play they can spot vtes.
I think centralising second hand sales to a visible platform for all kinds of ccg players will help.

TLDR
Try to think of platforms other ccg players already use and try to get cards sold through that same channel, if the channel allows for visibility when you do not know VTES exists.
1. They can spot VTES as a brand through channels they already use.
2. They can buy VTES through channels they already use.

Ke. wrote:

enriquesmw wrote:

the "gold cards" like parthenon, I. Highway, etc etc

Parthenon is $2 USD and Information Highway's $1 and that's buy it now prices. Seems OK. Guess it's just perspective.

You can have a tournament viable deck in VTES for minimal outlay. Yes, once you start to explore more diverse and exotic options prices go up — but it's no where near insanity levels of MTG.

As I mentioned on the BS blog; I think the only card that really needs a VEKN version is Villein — without it large caps decks aren't all that viable and you need need 6+ of them (which is definitely an inhibitor for new players).

ok, i mention that because year's ago (like 2002, 2003) that kind of card's can only be finded in some old editions (Ancient Hearths, Final Night's, etc), and that kind of rarity made the card's more valuable, now you can find at US$2.- but again, you are asking to the new player's to invest some money (maybe not so much) to try to learn a "new" game, when you have to do is made the easy's way to learn it, a then, you can ask to them they buy "real cards" (like special tournaments with "non proxy cards" 1 or 2 for year with some good "prizes" or a special bonus if they made the final table, or any good idea).

The idea is bring more chances to teach to the new players, because print proxy card's have some cost (specialy time), so if you allowed the "new proxy expansions", why not made the "IV edition proxy"? And also, there are so many tournaments that maybe are allowing (in secret) proxy cards, so please bring this masquerade down and allow the rest of the world to do this.

In Chile never would be plausible to do a secret proxy tournament, because the hate between old players are far know, so they will scream at the second they will find it, and for me, is better with proxy beacuse it keep away the old "toxics" players (because they hate proxy but also they don't play tournament any more, the only think that they do is bring down any effort to relive the local metagame)

Some clarifications: Chile shouldn't be used as an argument/example about anything regarding vtes, it's a group of 15 people having issues with each other for about 20 years. Nothing healthy can be said and done about it and nothing will ever change about it, believe me, I've tried. VTES on chile will work when every single one of that generation retires.

On topic, it depends on what's VEKN plan for next x years. I don't know, 2 or 3. It is not something that can be discussed in a vacuum. Same can be said about new players: VTES being print-dead, it is important but what other variables comes into it? Thing have been discused and done regarding starter manuals and starting sets but I don't know if it has been discused as a whole: print status/proxies, new players not arriving, old players retiring, secondary market.

i think I'm with Juggernaut1 here, dealing with both Hasbro and CCP will always complicate things so perhaps adapt game mechanics and play about generic vampires, generic werewolves or generic pirates may be the way to go and since we're on it, let's make it LCG so availability is not an issue and generic-enkil-generic-cog doesn't cost a ton of money

Brett's question is almost rhetorical. The next obvious step is to recognize proxies. The likelihood that a new publisher will be able to take up the game is very, very low, but it is that possibility that prevents the VEKN from recognizing proxies.

VEKN should probably still give lip service to the possibility of a new publisher, but they should act realistically. And they are, by creating new cards for tournament play. The next step is going to come sooner or later.

But besides the VEKN, the question should also be posed to play groups: should you allow proxies in casual play? I've spent a lot on VTES cards, but I am no longer interested in spending any more. I don't play enough. If I need a spare card and I can't borrow it, I'm going to proxy it.

I like Brett's idea of allowing proxies of revised cards. Specifically, I would like a print-ready version of those cards that I could place over my old versions. In my last game, I incorrectly played Taste of Vitae because I had an older version.

The logic of "game will not be picked up by new publisher if vekn allow proxies" is behind my understanding for a log time. It's maybe the case for OBS, but real company obviously will reboot the game making all old cards/proxies irrelevant.

The idea, that the value of cards will drop is also questionable - Enkil Cog, Villein, Summon History and smth like it maybe, but most of the cards maybe will even grow in price if the game became more played. As was already said - people prefer to play with real cards and quite ready to pay for it (look at the mtg players who pays rediculous amounts for "foil" cards with got no additional game value).

One other idea from mtg of alloving proxies (in Vintage format) - emake a cap for proxies (10-15) as well as adding some additional trophy for highest standing non-proxied deck.

brettscho wrote:

alek wrote:

IMO only thing we should care is:
would it bring more players or maybe it will have negative impact on number of players because some people don't want to play with proxies. Without proper statistical survey (and pool on forum is not good for it) it's really hard to quess.

Well, I agree with your priorities. But are you suggesting that we can never really know the consequences of our actions, so we should never take any? As for the possibility of printed proxy cards having a negative effect (driving people away from the game), I find that highly unlikely. Printed cards are already welcome in most play groups for casual games (including every play group that I've been part of or heard about. but I write "most" because my sample size is small). The difference that I'm suggesting seems to be to be a very minor one. Simply saying that what everybody is already doing (printed proxies for casual events) is now ok at tournaments. We'd just be codifying a common practice.

But the benefits for a new player are immeasurable. Right now, getting access to staple cards is often a matter of getting lucky on Ebay.

I'm not suggesting that we can never really know consequences of our actions. I'm suggesting that before taking such steps like allowing proxies we should do a thorough examination of the expected results. That's because such move don't have only positive apsects but also a lot of negative ones. Instead of getting new players we can get no new and lost o lot of old players. To have better insight in the problem vekn should f.e. organize worlwide survey. It can be done with help of NC and local princes which should gather all neccesary data. Only then we should consider such changes.