How I would relaunch V:TES (competitiveness + Speed and fluidity)

Everybody is enthousiastically flooding the forum with their ideas on how VTES should come into print. I think the forum is slightly losing focus.

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Stakeholders

• Paradox
• VEKN
• Random people
• Interested players
• Old Players

Paradox (Just making assumptions)

• Profit motive: Paradox wants to make money from the recently aquired IP
• Branding: They want to strengthen the IP, Releasing a role play game, an MMO and a Card game might serve their interests. Establishing an IP as strong and lasting as Warhammer 40k where you have books, tabletop, videogames, cardgames,... etc is (in my opinion) definitely something they want to achieve.

VEKN

• Continuance of VTES as a card game. This implicits striving for a growth in player base.

Random people

• Enjoying life, making friends, earning respect from accomplishments, a new challenge.
• Random encounters.

Interested players

• Find value (challenge, fun, mechanics, artwork, WOD IP, other goal,...) in VTES
• Achievement & Progress: Upon joining they need to feel like they stand a chance, they need to feel progress in the ingame turns they take and in the decks they can build.
  On this note: World Ranking needs to be restored to this site ASAP

Old players

• Personal VTES motivation: For me personally this is 5 player game with prey predator relationship. I care very little for vampire/werewolf/theme or what the disciplines mean. I care about the table balance, the player meta politics and how I can achieve my goal (Ousting as many prey's before death or time) in an efficient and consistent way. I like building decks with all the wonky existing strategies to see if there's value in them.
• Pot commitment: I'm only playing for a year, but there's players here that have spent a significant part of their life and a significant amount of money to play VTES, for whatever other reasons that motivates old players this adds to it.
• Friends and other allegiances/rivalrys that have sprung from playing VTES, Casually meeting your friends on a regular shedule, maybe you intentionally fly a plane to a tournament half a world away just so you can beat that one player.

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Please add whatever motives for the stakeholders and new stakeholders you can think of that are of importance.

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My opinions about a new release
To get new players I'm a firm believer in the following things:

1. Card design: Needs to be prettier and clearer, more contrast, more vivid cards, more gruelly artwork. Votes should be clear, clans and sects, what is an ability? Is it Arika's pay for locations? Is it the +2 bleed? The 4 votes? The redesign should make the cards layout so crystal clear that seeds of corruption is playable without mistakes or discussion.


2. A visible distribution channel. I'd like it to be physical, but it doesn't have to be physical. A physical distribution gives the current players and princes a chance at promoting their game, someone interested pops over to spectate you can guide them to the counter and advise them on what starter deck/LCG box they should buy to play along instantly.
   
   I know a bunch of Yu-gi-oh players that randomly bought "pokemon world championship decks" they barely know the rules but play it on the side for fun, even though none of the 4 decks they bought are from the same format. They bought it because it was at the counter and had the promise of being competitive for 15Eur.
   
   If paradox makes an awesome simulator for vtes like Heartstone that'd be fine. However Random People need to be able to notice it. I do think paradox needs to make a tablet version of vtes, preferably conference call style in very vivid and clear design.
   
   To get new players we need VTES to be visible to new players that possibly share the interest for the setting/mechanics


3. Card Flow: The concept that your hand replentishes instantaneously is great! Really. It's one of the strengths of VTES. However most cards in the library are so crazy specific that they are unplayable, even cards that are playable often have no use at certain points in the game. A useless hand of cards is really frustrating (all my vampires are in torpor/pentexed/stolen range of frustrating). Every player should always be able to do something meaningful on their turn. What annoys me most about current card design is that it is made for double effects but it is not used by card designers instead of chosing for 2 effects like Eyes of Argus they mainly choose for a single effect with a bit more like Spirit's Touch. Intimidation isn't as flexible as Entrancement. Pursuit is better than Blur not because of the blood cost, but the multifunctionality. VTES needs more: Searches, Combo cards, Recursion.


4. Introduction set: There's no need to baby new players. New players aren't stupid, if the card design is clear and the rules are cleaned from the clutter there's no reason to give them a watered down VTES. Do you really think New players will stick with vtes if all the new set allows them to do is lose from old players with acces to rare cards? New players need to jump in with immediate availability to all cards that see tournament play.
   You can't create a new limited VTES without splitting the community in 2.
   
   VTES is great because we have a balancing system inherent in the rules: Unique.
   If a card is too strong (Pentex, Enkil, Parthenon, Ivory Bow,....) it can be contested. There's only a balance problem when acces to these cards is restricted. I had to search very hard to get a copy of Pentex to stop my star vampire decks from eating dust each and every time.
   
   The Introduction Set should include all tournament viable cards (Ashurs, Ossian, Target Vitals, WWS, .44Magnums, Govern, Deflection, Villein, Voter Cap, Zillah's Valley, Pentex,....) Let the new players wage war on the old players with all tools available. Don't give them a crappy Black Hand Starter deck and beat them into submission each and every game because they have no acces to actually usefull cards.
   
   No, don't start whining about "Design space" Don't exclude Magnum or Govern. Create better cards to accompany the set, create alternative ousting methods, alternative acceleration methods, make everything so it can be interacted with. A Potence card that can break the opposing vampire's arms and steal his Magnum, A Serpentis card that turns things like Enchant Kindred/Govern/Zillah's Valley into corruption counters. The game is about Methuselahs thwarting each other in a struggle for power.
   
   So: Introduction set = Tournament viable reprints + new cards that match power level of Kine (4 pool damage flexible) and Govern (3 Pool damage to prey + flexible). If you are worried about game length you should'nt take away the punch from the decks, you should provide more ways to punch.

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What should be the reprints at least?
I'd like to see new cards and new vampires of grouping 5-6 added to this, all need to be on good powerlevel.

1. Carlton
2. Jake Washington
3. Gregory Winter
4. Ossian
5. Procurer
6. Muddled Vampire Hunter
7. Renegade Garou
8. Ponticulus


9. Mr. Whintrop
10. Tasha Morgan
11. Raven Spy
12. Homunculus


13. Ivory Bow
14. Palatial Estate
15. Heart of Nizchetus
16. Bowl of Convergence
17. Soul Gem


18. .44 Magnum
19. Leather Jacket
20. Sport Bike
21. Camera Phone
22. Kevlar Vest
23. Light Intensifying goggles
24. Flash Grenade


25. KRC
26. Banishment
27. Parity Shift
28. Con boon
29. Ancient Influence
30. Ancilla empowerment
31. Rumors of Gehenna
32. Reins of Power


33. The Unmasking


34. Villein
35. Dreams
36. Ashurs
37. Pentex
38. Giants Blood
39. Barrens
40. Direct Intervention
41. Wash
42. Effective Management
43. Wider View
44. Madness Network
45. Montreal


46. Enkil Cog
47. Second Trad
48. The Embrace
49. Fake Out
50. Dodge
51. Trap
52. Target Vitals
53. Concealed Weapon
54. Amaranth


55. Into Thin Air
56. Cloak The Gathering
57. Swallowed By the Night
58. Faceless Night
59. Elder Impersonation


60. Majesty
61. Voter Cap
62. Entrancement
63. Enchant Kindred
64. Perfect Paragon


65. Immortal Grapple
66. Disarm
67. Slam
68. Thrown Gate
69. Preternatural Strength


70. Form of Mist
71. Earth Meld
72. Earth Control
73. Flesh of Marble
74. Claws of The Dead


75. Kindred Spirits
76. Eyes of Chaos
77. Confusion
78. Deny
79. Restructure


80. Deflection
81. Govern
82. Conditioning
83. Bonding
84. Seduction


85. Daring the dawn
86. Kiss of Ra
87. RWTP
88. Freak Drive
89. Soak


90. Magic of the smith
91. Rego Motus
92. Theft of Vitae
93. Apportation
94. Burst of Sunlight


95. Cat's Guidance
96. Carrion Crows
97. Deep Song
98. Canine Horde
99. Aid From Bats


100. Telephatic Misdirection
101. Enhanced Senses
102. Eyes of Argus
103. Eagle's Sight
104. Precognition


105. Pursuit
106. Blur
107. Psyche
108. Sideslip
109. Infernal Pursuit

I could not agree more with everything you just said.

2wayspeaker wrote:

Paradox (Just making assumptions)

Branding: They want to strengthen the IP, Releasing a role play game, an MMO and a Card game might serve their interests. Establishing an IP as strong and lasting as Warhammer 40k where you have books, tabletop, videogames, cardgames,... etc is (in my opinion) definitely something they want to achieve.

Yes! It is so good to see somebody mention this
Think back to the talk that was given a few months ago regarding their plans for the game.

They obviously have plans for the WoD which extend beyond this card game. There will inevitably be new plot, ideas, themes that will be thrown to the forefront. I think it'd be amazing to have a (compatible) revised edition of the game, but with a base set being heavily rooted in their newly envisioned world. New cards, new ideas, new strategies!

I dont want to lose the game I love, but Im excited to see some new flavour injected into the whole shebang!

My only changes to what you wrote would be to remove all triffles, events, cards that allow players to act on another's turns and masters out of turn JUST for the first set.
Then those could be re-introduced later.

Mostly agree. Taste of vitae is super important though.

Brum wrote:

My only changes to what you wrote would be to remove all triffles, events, cards that allow players to act on another's turns and masters out of turn JUST for the first set.
Then those could be re-introduced later.

I'd even go further and say that cards that allow you to act on other people's turns should just go away. They are absurdly powerful and extremely complicated rules wise. I think the game could safely allow them to go. If out of turn actions must be taken, force them to be used between turns - after the discard phase of one player but before the untap phase of another. Acting during the minion phase creates all kinds of rules problems without much gain timing-wise.