As predicted by somebody (lol) shit hit the fan again

I wouldn't jump the current revisions bandwagon too quickly. Classic material is classic for reason.

Kraus wrote:

To be fair, dual discipline requirements already work well for HoS, and other cards as well (Scalpel Tongue effectively being a Toreador card, and Shadow Boxing a Nosferatu one). It's a great way within the game rules without creating a new discipline.

Scalpel Tongue works just as well for the Brujah, and Brujah antitribu. Not just technically, because they also have Cel/Pre - they turn up in quite a few tournament winning decks.

One of the primary reasons those cards work well, though, is that they build off foundations that were already there. Lots of Toreador, !Toreador, Brujah, !Brujah etc. had Cel/Pre long before Scalpel Tongue was invented, and continued to have it long after it was invented. Similar with Shadow Boxing.

If you go too far down the OBT+NEC library card route, you essentially exclude all existing vampires from playing the cards, so there's little incentive for that interesting group 2 powerbleed deck to think about trying out some new cards. There are literally two vampires in the game with OBT/NEC, both 10 caps. One is in group 4, so wouldn't be playable with any likely new group 6 vampires developing the theme - group 5 is probably about full for Giovanni, and doesn't have much space for many new Lasombra. So you may well be saying Group 6 only.

You do ever so slightly better if you drop to obt+NEC, and pick up one vampire with nec+OBT. (Plus Bartholomew the Kiasyd stranded in group 2.) So this might be an occasion to think about the Elemental Stoicism template of messing with disciplines but not necessarily going to NEC+OBT. Perhaps something like: nec / nec+obt / NEC+obt. obt / nec + obt / nec+OBT. Or if you can keep some of the effects very simple,have an inferior for each of Obt and Nec, somewhat like a fallback level from a bloodlines discipline.

Giovanny, as dumb racist stereotype, should be removed for good, all useful effects from should be moved to .

Not nec+obt, Nec OR Obt, having either works. I don't gen how anyone can be stupid enough to suggest Nec+Obt combo for oblivion cards ...

Lech wrote:

I don't gen how anyone can be stupid enough to suggest Nec+Obt combo for oblivion cards ...

It turns out that other people can have opinions that you don't share, while also not being stupid.

Can, but the oblivion ISN'T nec+obt combo, it's one discipline that is shared by Lasombra and Giovanni. Therefore it's stupid to think that they need to possess both classic disciplines to use oblivion cards. You can sell some former serpentis cards as + or + cards, just like you can sell some oblivion cards as + , or even as or with clan bonuses (like torreador +bleed card), but selling as non-existing discipline spread + is insulting other people in this very thread.