As predicted by somebody (lol) shit hit the fan again

Ratadin wrote:

In general, I think the whole "default sect" doesn't work properly. It kind of makes sense if vampires appeared out of thin air, in which case they should be from the default sect (like, if suddenly a random gangrel appeared, it would probably be independent, wouldn't it?). But right now almost all of the instances in which new vampires are introduce into the game besides influencing them out from the crypt are by embracing them (or similar effects, like the troops). I sincerely don't understand why Anarch childes came into the world with a Camarilla or sabbat visa. Is there a Sabbat priest always lurking behind every single anarch lasombra waiting for a new childe to be born to spread the word of the sabbat? Special mention to the freaking third tradition and creation rites, because not even freaking princes can convince their lasombra childe to stay as a camarilla.

An inherited sect makes the most sense, maybe with certain exceptions (which I think should be specified on the card).

That should land in the next RTR !

Lech wrote:

Can, but the oblivion ISN'T nec+obt combo, it's one discipline that is shared by Lasombra and Giovanni. Therefore it's stupid to think that they need to possess both classic disciplines to use oblivion cards.

If Nec and Obt are merging into a single discipline (which I consider stupid in the first place, as I do most of the metaplot stuff I keep hearing about)

Then the easiest solution to this would be to introduce a line of new cards where you get the same effect for either necromancy or obtenebration. This is in my opinion the most elegant way to introduce this metaplot change into VTEs without invalidating old cards. What these effects would be, is another discussion. Obviously we need to be careful about this, if for example Giovanni would suddenly gain huge influx of stealth out of these cards.

Bloodartist wrote:

Then the easiest solution to this would be to introduce a line of new cards where you get the same effect for either necromancy or obtenebration. This is in my opinion the most elegant way to introduce this metaplot change into VTEs without invalidating old cards. What these effects would be, is another discussion. Obviously we need to be careful about this, if for example Giovanni would suddenly gain huge influx of stealth out of these cards.

That sort of issue is why I'm unsure about it being the best solution all round. Do you have to end up designing quite niche effects, such that it doesn't tip things too far one way or the other for either clan? e.g. a Giovanni shamblers deck might rush to take advantage of some blood gain that might be a fine addition for Obtenebration on its own.

I wonder if there might be some mileage in the Bloodlines model - a card that offers three levels: nec/obt/OBT, or obt/nec/NEC. The key point being that the nec and obt levels can be different, if you want them to be.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

I wonder if there might be some mileage in the Bloodlines model - a card that offers three levels: nec/obt/OBT, or obt/nec/NEC. The key point being that the nec and obt levels can be different, if you want them to be.

Nowe we are talking, there is nothing wrong with such solution, and in some cases it might be preffered over straight Nec or Obt combo cards. Sometimes even wording on inf "if have superior,may do something more" would be preffered. There are a lot of good solutions....

I've been sitting on this for a minute but:

Shouldn't we wait for Chicago by Night (v58.2, I think we're on...) before forming an opinion on Oblivion/ .

I feel like with Cam/Anarch books we almost have a whole game in V5, and there are directions to go with the two disciplines but let's face it, we don't know what they're doing yet. Look @ V5 . Could we have known that serpentis would now be supplanted with it, when only the sloppy heart of darkness ability seemed like ? I made a joke and moved on.

We only got 2 new (that feels weird to type) clans in FoS and Assamites in 2 books that feel like chapters one would cut/edit from core book. Are we getting Tzimisce, Giovanni, AND Lasombra in CBN? Or just the clans.
I know I'm just complaining because I started with 2nd ed and revised (and liked V20 stuff) but I prefer a diverse and playable game out the core book, not ancillae and younger minus 5 clans, even with interesting new systems.

Point is, metaplot aside, we can safely say it's worth waiting to jump to conclusions.

But seriously, Brujah and Gangrel in cam in 2019 isn't taboo (V5 has Inyanga, Art Morgan, Rosa Hernandez, Critias, Damien, and Donal O'Connor mentioned canonically if the top of my head. )
Especially since we've been pretending!Tremere still exist.

The discussion needs to now be, seriously, do we merge antitribbu clans with base?

ReverendRevolver wrote:

I've been sitting on this for a minute but:

Shouldn't we wait for Chicago by Night (v58.2, I think we're on...) before forming an opinion on Oblivion/ .

Ideally I'd get a solid idea of what the plans for Oblivion (and a whole lot of other things) are well before the release of CbN v58.2 so that I can create a good roadmap for development of new material. That's the main thing I'm trying to do right now with respect to all of that.

That said, don't let that stop you all from speculating and brainstorming. It's good to see ideas and options bouncing around.

Some replies to some comments and questions:

See also: the Bloodlines aren't designed in the same way as a full clan, because when something is different it makes sense to consider its differences in context.

When Mike and I were designing Lost Kindred, we had a "full clan" approach rather than the original "companion clan" approach in the first Bloodlines set.

Just focusing on the discipline issues, have conversations been had already about the development of Dementation in the future and - by extension - the Malkavians?

Yes, some. There's still a fair amount of missing information and things to decide on.

It's wholly different subject when we ban all nec/obt cards and give them new :OBL: discipline from the ground up, but i doubt it will happen at all.

Just to be clear, I have a lot of difficulty envisioning a scenario where we have to ban all Necromancy and Obtenebration cards. I certainly have no intention of doing so.