file Returning player - Card changes - Questions - Obsolete decks?

08 Jan 2022 13:54 #104415 by Dthamilaye
Hello.

INFO:
It has been several years since I last played VTES. A week ago we happened to play GoT card game with my friends and I thought that I know a much better multiplayer game which we could try out as well. We all know MtG (EDH) very well, but I really would like to introduce VTES to my friends, as it is even better for multiplayer than MtG EDH.

So I dusted my old VTES decks and also bought the 25th deck and 5th edition precon box. I read that the 5th editon precons are good to start/learn the game with, are quite balanced and "ready-to-run" with guides for each deck. My own decks seemed more "specialized" or concentrated on one thing and are definitely not balanced vs each other.
I also got the new (reasonably sized) version of the rulebook in the box, yay :).

However, when I then went through the cards, I noticed odd things and then went to net to check on things and it seems that at least in 2019, with the 25th deck, some big changes were introduced, namely:

Villein - Now only moves 2-5 pool (This change might have happened earlier)
Pentex Subversion - Now only prevents blocking
Parity Shift - Now always 3 pool
Ankara Citadel - Cost reduction does not work on Action Modifiers anymore
Una - Cost reduction works only for combat cards anymore
Black Metamorphosis - Now +1 stealh action.

Suddenly, I had to check through ALL my 20 decks and ponder if they needed Pentex/Suddens/Washes anymore. Or if I should use something else than Parities for vote decks. Previously star-vampire bleed decks and something like Enkidu required massive defence against Pentex, while now it seems Pentex is a non-issue.

QUESTION1:
Has there been any other big changes in how the most played cards work in the last ... uh, 10 years? Mind Rape added the "You still control this card" vs the old version, but is there something I should know that has been errated in a similar way than Pentex/Villein/Parity Shift? Especially in cards that are played a lot like these were?

QUESTION2:
What decks now are using Pentex anymore? I would assume mostly block/wall decks that use only few vampires would like to have options against it? Of course one Pentex might be ok for a bleed deck "just in case" for some lunge, but I assume I do not need four Sudden reversals anymore in addition.


OBSOLETE DECKS?:
Here are my old decks. How many of these are reduced to useless (but maybe fun ... or not) -status? Or are all still somehow usable, at least on the kitchen table?
Well I know everything works on kitchen table, but if something seems just completely useless nowadays, please inform me. I'm not delving into the decklists that much now, just asking if the general archetype has no hope of working, for some reason or other, in current environment :).

- Samedi Reanimated Corpses
- Elf Bleed (Arcadian/Dame/Isanwayen)
- Elf Fight (Arcadian/Dame/Isanwayen with Earth Swords/Arms of the Abyss)
- Tups (I don't even remember how this was played anymore ><)
- Chaundice gargoyle Rush
- ANI Weenies (Aid from bats/Carrion crows)
- The Unnamed Bleed
- Theo/Beast Rush
- Bruise Princes (Volker/Murat/Nikolaus/Rake with Parities and Potence stuff)
- Tremere Block/Bruise/Bleed (Selena/Ladislas/Carna/Una)
- Tremere Vote (Gabrielle/Fanchon/Orlando, some Mind Rapes/Parities)
- Ahrimane Wall (Muricia/Effie with AFB/Carrion Crows and birdy-discipline stuff)
- Salubri Fillbleed (Serenna/Matthew with Renewed Vigor/Minion Taps)
- Enkidu (Psyche!/Pursuit/Earth Meld)
- Arika Vote (Arika/Anne/Marcus with bunch of politics and some Mind Rapes)
- Celerirty Guns (Asguresh with Concealed weapons and .44s)
- Daughters of Cacophony vote (Yseult/Angela/Gael/ with political stuff and Embraces)
- Followers of Set Fill/Bleed (Nefertiti/Nehsi/Khaytall/ with Eternals, Mesu Bedshet, Tempation, Golgondas and Villeins)
- Draco&Friends (The 2015 deck with Draco/Lord Trememre/Baba Yaga and Theft of Vitae and interception. This deck is new and I'm still gathering/waiting cards for it.)

Finally, I assume this is still a thing:
- Stanislava votebleed (basically the 25h deck with some small modifications)

Thank you.

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08 Jan 2022 16:33 #104416 by Hakuron
I hope someone give you an answer to your question #1.

Regarding question #2: Pentex still wins games (e.g. see: www.vekn.net/forum/event-reports-and-twd/79578-twd-and-report-new-year-s-rumble-2nd-jan-2022). The "only" yet important difference is that (multi-)active Star Decks are no longer shut down by it.

Regarding "obsolete" decks: I encourage you to browse through the tournament-winning decks (and reports) of the last two years: www.vekn.net/forum/event-reports-and-twd
Of course some decks are more successful than others, but it always depends on metagame and playstyle etc.

National Coordinator Germany
nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de

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08 Jan 2022 16:50 - 08 Jan 2022 16:51 #104417 by Ankha

Hello.

INFO:
It has been several years since I last played VTES. A week ago we happened to play GoT card game with my friends and I thought that I know a much better multiplayer game which we could try out as well. We all know MtG (EDH) very well, but I really would like to introduce VTES to my friends, as it is even better for multiplayer than MtG EDH.

So I dusted my old VTES decks and also bought the 25th deck and 5th edition precon box. I read that the 5th editon precons are good to start/learn the game with, are quite balanced and "ready-to-run" with guides for each deck. My own decks seemed more "specialized" or concentrated on one thing and are definitely not balanced vs each other.
I also got the new (reasonably sized) version of the rulebook in the box, yay :).

Welcome back then!

However, when I then went through the cards, I noticed odd things and then went to net to check on things and it seems that at least in 2019, with the 25th deck, some big changes were introduced, namely:

Villein - Now only moves 2-5 pool (This change might have happened earlier)
Pentex Subversion - Now only prevents blocking
Parity Shift - Now always 3 pool
Ankara Citadel - Cost reduction does not work on Action Modifiers anymore
Una - Cost reduction works only for combat cards anymore
Black Metamorphosis - Now +1 stealh action.

Suddenly, I had to check through ALL my 20 decks and ponder if they needed Pentex/Suddens/Washes anymore. Or if I should use something else than Parities for vote decks. Previously star-vampire bleed decks and something like Enkidu required massive defence against Pentex, while now it seems Pentex is a non-issue.

QUESTION1:
Has there been any other big changes in how the most played cards work in the last ... uh, 10 years? Mind Rape added the "You still control this card" vs the old version, but is there something I should know that has been errated in a similar way than Pentex/Villein/Parity Shift? Especially in cards that are played a lot like these were?


5 cards were banned and reprinted under different names : www.vekn.net/history-of-vtes-rules/485-rules-team-rulings-5-july-2020

Some cards were reprinted with minor changes: www.vekn.net/history-of-vtes-rules/484-rules-team-rulings-19-july-2018

Anarch is now a sect on its own and a few cards were updated to make them usable as before: www.vekn.net/history-of-vtes-rules/483-rules-team-rulings-11-may-2018

Caitiff is now a proper clan. The way vampires are now put into play during the influence phase has slightly changed: www.vekn.net/history-of-vtes-rules/482-rules-team-rulings-3-march-2018

Lilith's Blessing was banned in 2011: www.vekn.net/history-of-vtes-rules/454-rules-team-rulings-22-april-2013

If you want the exhaustive list, here it is:

Quickness (V5 Anarch: 01/12/2021)
Now costs no blood

Becoming, The (KoT reprint: 05/05/2018)
The discipline cards need to be master (has no impact currently).

Count Zaroff (KoT reprint: 05/05/2018)
His ability can now be used more than once each turn, if you manage to bring him back from the uncontrolled region during the same turn.

Gotsdam, The Tired Warrior (KoT reprint: 05/05/2018)
Gotsdam is no longer immune to frenzy cards. Instead, frenzy cards cannot be played on him.

Villein (KoT reprint: 05/05/2018)
Cannot move more than 5 blood.

Soul Scan (KoT reprint: 05/05/2018)
The vampire that is retrieved from the crypt is now revealed.

Mistress Fanchon (KoT reprint: 05/05/2018)
The minion card searched is now revealed.

Tyler McGill (KoT reprint: 05/05/2018)
May gain more than one vote if the Edge is somehow burned more than once for a vote.

Show of Force (PDF Reprint: 09/07/2021)
The vampire can gain +2 strength at superior instead of +1 strength.

Inside Dirt (PDF Reprint: 09/07/2021)
Burns 3 blood or 3 pool, instead of 2.

Public Vilification (PDF Reprint: 09/07/2021)
The blood stolen is now distributed amongst vampires.

Vivienne Géroux (KS Rewards: 09/07/2021)
Can play cards requiring basic Celerity and/or Fortitude as an Anarch vampire.

De Sade (PDF Reprint: 09/07/2021)
All vampires (including the ones which the same controller) must burn blood to vote against De Sade's referendums.

Daliah (PDF Reprint: 09/07/2021)
Gaining blood is now optional.

Vlad Tepes (KS Rewards: 09/07/2021)
Vlad uses continuously the cards on him (not "can use": using them is not optional).

Matasuntha (Anthology: 11/05/2017)
Gaining a pool is now optional.

Banner of Neutrality (RTR: 11/05/2018)
Can be played by anarchs.

Community Justice (RTR: 11/05/2018)
Can be played by anarchs.

Exclusion Principle (RTR: 11/05/2018)
Also counts anarchs.

Free States Rant (RTR: 11/05/2018)
Can be played by anarchs.

Haqim's Law: Judgment (RTR: 11/05/2018)
Can be used by anarchs.

Reckless Agitation (RTR: 11/05/2018)
Can be played by anarchs.

Jan Pieterzoon (ADV) (RTR: 11/05/2018)
His merged text applies while he is Independent or Anarch.

Count Germaine (ADV) (RTR: 11/05/2018)
He gets +2 bleed against a Methuselah who controls a titled non-Independent, non-Anarch vampire.

Matthew Romans (RTR: 11/05/2018)
He can lock a younger non-Independent, non-Anarch vampire controlled by your prey.

Clockwerx (HttB reprint: 14/07/2018)
The vampire in combat must be a Blood Brother (previously, a vampire).

Hay Ride (HttB reprint: 14/07/2018)
The vampire playing the card must be a Blood Brother (previously, a vampire).

Hive Mind (HttB reprint: 14/07/2018)
The vampire playing the card must be a Blood Brother (previously, a vampire).

Slake the Thirst (HttB reprint: 14/07/2018)
The vampire playing the card must be a Blood Brother (previously, a vampire).

Dagger (HttB reprint: 14/07/2018)
Now inflicts aggravated damage on Kiasyd.

Joumlon's Axe (HttB reprint: 14/07/2018)
Now inflicts aggravated damage on Kiasyd.

Draeven Softfoot (HttB reprint: 14/07/2018)
No longer has a reference to Cold iron cards.

Danylo (HttB reprint: 14/07/2018)
The location that is retrieved from the library is now revealed.

New Moon Sigil (HttB reprint: 14/07/2018)
The trait Moon sigil has been dropped.

Safe Passage (HttB reprint: 14/07/2018)
Removed reference to powers.

Scarlet Lore (HttB reprint: 14/07/2018)
The minion card searched is now revealed.

Shalmath (HttB reprint: 14/07/2018)
Removed reference to the research area.

Cheat the Fate (HttB reprint: 14/07/2018)
The minions unlocks as part of the resolution.

Great Symposium (HttB reprint: 14/07/2018)
The Kiasyd is now revealed.

Hide the Heart (HttB reprint: 14/07/2018)
The action now fails instead of being ended.

Gift of Sleep (HttB reprint: 14/07/2018)
Now explicitly states that the minion is not locked if blocking.

Code of Samiel (HttB reprint: 14/07/2018)
Gaining blood and unlocking are now optional.

Lord of Serenity (HttB reprint: 14/07/2018)
Gaining blood is now optional.

Nahum Enosh (HttB reprint: 14/07/2018)
Gaining blood is now optional.

The unnamed (HttB reprint: 14/07/2018)
Gaining pool is now optional.

Matthew (HttB reprint: 14/07/2018)
Now reduce the cost of any master card during your master phase (has no impact currently).

Hillanvale (HttB reprint: 14/07/2018)
She gets -1 intercept against non-Independent, non-Anarch vampires.

Grotesque (HttB reprint: 14/07/2018)
You have to choose a location each time the Grotesque comes play (for instance if they were moved back to the uncontrolled region with a Banishment), but you can choose the same location again (errata).

Telepathic Tracking (SP: 16/02/2019)
The card is played when the combat would end, and replaces this by starting a new round. Telepathic Tracking is always played before Psyche! because Psyche! is played when combat is about to end (that is after any replacement effects).

Mirror Walk (SP: 16/02/2019)
Now explicitly locks the blocking minion.

Perfectionist (SP: 16/02/2019)
Gaining blood is now optional.

Trap (SP: 16/02/2019)
Is now put into play with counters to track the number of presses it can provide.

Powerbase: Madrid (SP: 16/02/2019)
Adding the counter is now optional.

Rack, The (SP: 16/02/2019)
Adding the blood is now optional.

Embrace, The (SP: 16/02/2019)
Inherits the sire's sect.

Form of Mist (25th: 16/08/2019)
Can be played if stealth is not yet needed (eg. Stanislava vs. blocking minion with Raven Spy).

Parity Shift (25th: 16/08/2019)
Now steals 3 blood.

Pentex(TM) Subversion (25th: 16/08/2019)
The minion can act.

Black Metamorphosis (25th: 16/08/2019)
Is now a +1 stealth action.

Una (25th: 16/08/2019)
Now reduces costs of combat cards only.

Ankara Citadel, Turkey, The (25th: 16/08/2019)
Does not reduce the cost of action modifiers.

Vampires put in play (V5: 30/11/2020)
Inherits the sire's sect by default.

Becoming, The (V5: 30/11/2020)
Inherits the sire's sect.

Brother in Arms (V5: 30/11/2020)
Inherits the sire's sect.

Creation Rites (V5: 30/11/2020)
The vampire is now explicitly Sabbat.

Dual Form (V5: 30/11/2020)
Inherits the sire's sect.

Nosferatu Bestial (V5: 30/11/2020)
Inherits the sire's sect.

Third Tradition: Progeny (V5: 30/11/2020)
The vampire is now explicitly Camarilla.

Trophy: Progeny (V5: 30/11/2020)
Inherits the sire's sect.

Raw Recruit (V5: 30/11/2020)
The new Gargoyle inherits the acting Gargoyle's sect.

QUESTION2:
What decks now are using Pentex anymore? I would assume mostly block/wall decks that use only few vampires would like to have options against it? Of course one Pentex might be ok for a bleed deck "just in case" for some lunge, but I assume I do not need four Sudden reversals anymore in addition.

Basically any deck where a wall prey with a star is an issue, or if you play yourself a wall deck with a star (for the contest). It's no longer that useful in an Enkidu deck,

OBSOLETE DECKS?:
Here are my old decks. How many of these are reduced to useless (but maybe fun ... or not) -status? Or are all still somehow usable, at least on the kitchen table?
Well I know everything works on kitchen table, but if something seems just completely useless nowadays, please inform me. I'm not delving into the decklists that much now, just asking if the general archetype has no hope of working, for some reason or other, in current environment :).

- Samedi Reanimated Corpses => still ok
- Elf Bleed (Arcadian/Dame/Isanwayen) => still ok
- Elf Fight (Arcadian/Dame/Isanwayen with Earth Swords/Arms of the Abyss) => still ok
- Tups (I don't even remember how this was played anymore ><) => still ok
- Chaundice gargoyle Rush => still ok
- ANI Weenies (Aid from bats/Carrion crows) => still ok
- The Unnamed Bleed => still ok, it has access to many Ministry cards now
- Theo/Beast Rush => still ok, careful not to contest with the new Theo Bell which is popular
- Bruise Princes (Volker/Murat/Nikolaus/Rake with Parities and Potence stuff) => if it's a Nosferatu Royalty, the Parity Shift nerf hit it badly
- Tremere Block/Bruise/Bleed (Selena/Ladislas/Carna/Una)=> still ok
- Tremere Vote (Gabrielle/Fanchon/Orlando, some Mind Rapes/Parities)=> still ok
- Ahrimane Wall (Muricia/Effie with AFB/Carrion Crows and birdy-discipline stuff)=> still ok
- Salubri Fillbleed (Serenna/Matthew with Renewed Vigor/Minion Taps)=> still ok
- Enkidu (Psyche!/Pursuit/Earth Meld)=> still ok
- Arika Vote (Arika/Anne/Marcus with bunch of politics and some Mind Rapes)=> still ok
- Celerirty Guns (Asguresh with Concealed weapons and .44s)=> still ok
- Daughters of Cacophony vote (Yseult/Angela/Gael/ with political stuff and Embraces)=> still ok
- Followers of Set Fill/Bleed (Nefertiti/Nehsi/Khaytall/ with Eternals, Mesu Bedshet, Tempation, Golgondas and Villeins)=> still ok, unless you were planning to Villein for all to make the Temptations work on yourself
- Draco&Friends (The 2015 deck with Draco/Lord Trememre/Baba Yaga and Theft of Vitae and interception. This deck is new and I'm still gathering/waiting cards for it.)=> still ok
Finally, I assume this is still a thing:
- Stanislava votebleed (basically the 25h deck with some small modifications)=> still ok

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 08 Jan 2022 16:51 by Ankha.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Dthamilaye

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08 Jan 2022 19:15 - 08 Jan 2022 19:22 #104419 by Dthamilaye
This was quite a comprehensive answer. Thank you very much!
I went through the stuff and added some of my thoughts below.
I also have few extra questions at the bottom if you still have time for them.


MUSINGS:
Kiasyd Cold iron vulnerability is something I have to keep in mind, as I have few decks using Kiasyds. The new way how it is handled seems reasonable, and much more clear.

Scarce change is really nice. I never got into a situation anyone else would have played a Salubri deck when I did, but it still could have happened.

Blocking clarification - As I understand, if no card says anything special, then the blocking minion is tapped only if combat ensues and block succeeds.

In my opinion, after searching for specific cards from anywhere, they should have been revealed from the start. Good change as well.

Failing vs ending action I need to understand still... if an action fails, then the acting vampire is not tapped and the action cost does not need to be paid either, as far as I understand.

Uhh, I recall that the bleed action modifiers and additional strikes were already such that you could use only one card for them.... Good thing it is now cleared up. Seems that the cards that allowed differently were never really used in our playgroup.

Influence phase changes seem good as well.

The Telepathic Tracking vs Psyche! -functionality is something that can come up. I need to keep that in mind.

I have to clear for myself how the sect changes really work. Titles are lost etc. I don't recall if it has come up in our games though, so maybe just keep in mind to check it out if anarch conversion or some such happens.

Basically any deck where a wall prey with a star is an issue, or if you play yourself a wall deck with a star (for the contest). It's no longer that useful in an Enkidu deck,


True, it also works against star vampire block-decks, so bleed could use one or even two. And as a block deck you still want to prevent having your main blocker pentexed. Thanks for verifying my thoughts, just wanted to check if I missed somehting relevant :).

Regarding question #2: Pentex still wins games (e.g. see: www.vekn.net/forum/event-reports-and-twd/79578-twd-and-report-new-year-s-rumble-2nd-jan-2022). The "only" yet important difference is that (multi-)active Star Decks are no longer shut down by it.


Yes, Pentex still seems to be good option if you want to get through some block decks (i.e. you are running something else than Enkidu/Beast stuff) and block decks definitely want to have option to contenst or prevent it. But I was able to strip the 2-4 Suddens/Washes away from my action decks, which is very nice :).

- The Unnamed Bleed => still ok, it has access to many Ministry cards now

- Bruise Princes (Volker/Murat/Nikolaus/Rake with Parities and Potence stuff) => if it's a Nosferatu Royalty, the Parity Shift nerf hit it badly

- Followers of Set Fill/Bleed (Nefertiti/Nehsi/Khaytall/ with Eternals, Mesu Bedshet, Tempation, Golgondas and Villeins)=> still ok, unless you were planning to Villein for all to make the Temptations work on yourself


The Bruise Princes are not exactly Nosferatu Royalty. While Nosferatu Royalty (according to net) seems to use votes with stealth, my deck uses potence and some torn signposts and Bum's rush instead with my votes. But I assume the premise is the same, to get cheap titles out fast and doing some parities. Now the initial oomph is gone, and the deck will probably not be on similar level as before.

For followers, I have thought if I need to change Villeins to Minion Taps. But the deck already has so many masters that it would get stuck with Minion Taps.

QUESTION1:
Why was followers of set changed to "Ministry"? Was it again something regarding the name "followers of set" were no longer acceptable for some reason, or does Ministry somehow better represent the clan?

QUESTION2:
What does it mean that Infernals can now use Follower of set cards (If I understood correctly)?

QUESTION3:
What would be the use of using Temptations on your own vampires? Does it have some actual gameplay use?

QUESTION4:
It seems that Temptation of Greater Power is also banned? Is this similar situation as Lilith's Blessing? I think I still have Temptation of Greater Powers in few decks and I need to remove them if it is banned.


Thanks for the answers. Really appreciated. This cleared things for me a lot.
Last edit: 08 Jan 2022 19:22 by Dthamilaye.

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09 Jan 2022 07:43 #104423 by lip

QUESTION1:
Why was followers of set changed to "Ministry"? Was it again something regarding the name "followers of set" were no longer acceptable for some reason, or does Ministry somehow better represent the clan?

VTES follows the roleplaying game VTM evolution. They changed Followers of Set to Ministry and Assamite to Banu Haqim in V5, so VTES did the same.

QUESTION2:
What does it mean that Infernals can now use Follower of set cards (If I understood correctly)?

Followers of Set and Ministry are the same clan: Followers of Set vampires can play Ministry cards and Ministry vampires can play Followers of Set cards. This has nothing to do with Infernal minions.

QUESTION3:
What would be the use of using Temptations on your own vampires? Does it have some actual gameplay use?

It gives you an additional unlock (Temptation card text: "burn the counters to unlock and take control"). Neat trick to this card.Some decks play a couple of Temptation only to put them on their own vampires.

QUESTION4:
It seems that Temptation of Greater Power is also banned? Is this similar situation as Lilith's Blessing? I think I still have Temptation of Greater Powers in few decks and I need to remove them if it is banned.

Yes, Temptation of Greater Power has been banned in 2016.

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09 Jan 2022 09:29 - 09 Jan 2022 09:30 #104424 by Ankha

QUESTION2:
What does it mean that Infernals can now use Follower of set cards (If I understood correctly)?

What I meant is that the Ministry now have OBF / PRE / PRO as clan disciplines, which matches the Disciplines of The unnamed (I wasn't talking about the infernal in general).

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 09 Jan 2022 09:30 by Ankha.

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