Storyline Rewards 2015

alek wrote:

I just can't build good lasombra that uses new shiny card, and asking for it is justified. I don't think current decks would include group 5 Sabbat Lasombra with capacity 5, my deck on the other hand would love such addition.

You can build very good decks with Darksteel. You just won't use Under Siege in those. 5 cap with POT OBT dom would be great addittion for it but there is already a VERY good crypt. Here is what I'm using:

Crypt: (12 cards, Min: 22, Max: 29, Avg: 6,33)

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2 Badr DOM OBT POT 7 Lasombra
1 Black Wallace DOM obt POT tha6 Lasombra
1 Conrad Adoula ani cel DOM OBT POT8 Lasombra
2 Gianmaria Giovanni POT dom nec obt5 Giovanni
2 Lord Vauxhall DOM OBT POT THA7 Lasombra
2 Otieno ani dom OBT POT6 Lasombra
2 Virginie obt DOM POT 6 Lasombra

Most decks don't use Under Siege, and for a good reason: it require blocking, thus running those little red card most lasombra deck loathe.

It works great with obedience as well, so no red cards really needed.

To be fair that crypt isn't very good. Most of those vampires are suboptimal. The best vampire here are Badr and Lord Vauxhall, then Virgine and Otieno. Black Wallace, Gianmaria and Condrad are filler vampires who you don't really want to influence out. No one of those (all of tehm) have any interesting special/disciplines/title combination. Yet it works quite well, thanks to dominate magic.

I'm not calling for Tremere treatment (check g2-g3 Tre/!Tre crypt trying to build AUS/THA/dom deck, you literally have two 5 capacity vampires, 6 cap with all superiors, two 6 cap with AUS/THA/dom, 7 cap with AUS/DOM/THA and +1 cept, 3 cap with THA/aus, 7 cap with AUS/DOM/THA and 2 votes and planty other with good discipline/special to capacity ratio. Now imagine that THA is OBT, and AUS is POT, and you can build good OBT POT deck with it).

And exactly this kind of issue SUCKS. That camarilla clans got unfair advantage due to duplicate crypt options. Lasombra, Tzimisce and independent clans are disadvantaged due to that stupid design choice, and they didn't get any compensation for it.

Crypt (12 cards; Capacity min=5 max=9 avg=6.5)
==============================================
1x Andrew Emory 5 aus dom pot OBT Lasombra:4
2x Antón de Concepción 9 aus ANI DOM OBT POT Lasombra:4
2x Dr. Julius Sutphen 5 dom obt POT Lasombra:3
1x Ermenegildo, The Rake 5 pot DOM OBT Lasombra:4
1x Giangaleazzo, The Traitor 8 dom OBT POT PRE Lasombra:4
2x Lord Vauxhall 7 DOM OBT POT THA Lasombra:4
1x Otieno 6 ani dom OBT POT Lasombra:4
2x Virginie, Prodigy 6 obt DOM POT Lasombra:4

It's my current crypt, but it sucks. So many suboptimal choices, almost feel like wasted deck. G3 doesn't have many great choices for this deck. To be fair, just Julius, who is decent vampire for the deck that use Under Siege. G5 would have another two vampires who can't use under siege: Gianmaria and Badr. Perhaps Black Wallace would be good choice instead of Giangaleazzo, but i like that vampire (not that it lost me last final having him in my crypt instead of some useful vampires like Julius or Lord Vauxhall or Virgine.

Lech wrote:

That camarilla clans got unfair advantage due to duplicate crypt options. Lasombra, Tzimisce and independent clans are disadvantaged due to that stupid design choice, and they didn't get any compensation for it.

Independents have gotten plenty of compensation - count up number of clan cards for them compared to other clans.

I agree that to make Lasombra and Tzimisce more interesting they should get something and an obvious something is a bunch of additional vampires, with the main splits being Sabbat and Laibon but with a few others. The problem with this is that people equate more options with more power, which, actually, does often end up being the case, and neither is hurting that bad powerwise. For a similar example, see how little enthusiasm there is for creating more Camarilla or Camarilla Clan cards, even though it's easy to make cards that don't help P/J decks or ICM decks.

On the other hand, saying that Tzimisce have a great 2/3 crypt is an awful argument. Those were cards largely printed about 15 years ago. Malks have a great group 1 crypt in that Aus/Dom/Obf is one of the best discipline combinations possible even if many of the specific vampires are limited and somewhat lacking. That's not an argument for avoiding printing any useful Malks. And, we've certainly seen lots of quality Malks in later groups.

ICL wrote:

Lech wrote:

That camarilla clans got unfair advantage due to duplicate crypt options. Lasombra, Tzimisce and independent clans are disadvantaged due to that stupid design choice, and they didn't get any compensation for it.

Independents have gotten plenty of compensation - count up number of clan cards for them compared to other clans.

A lot, recently even some quality cards. On the other hand both Lasombra and Tzimisce have not many clan cards, as they were created with though that they can use generic sabbat cards alongside thir clan cards, which is no longer the case in 3-4-5 grouping.

ICL wrote:

I agree that to make Lasombra and Tzimisce more interesting they should get something and an obvious something is a bunch of additional vampires, with the main splits being Sabbat and Laibon but with a few others. The problem with this is that people equate more options with more power, which, actually, does often end up being the case, and neither is hurting that bad powerwise. For a similar example, see how little enthusiasm there is for creating more Camarilla or Camarilla Clan cards, even though it's easy to make cards that don't help P/J decks or ICM decks.

Yes, both of those clans are doing ok powerwise, despite fucked up g4 grouping sect-wise. On the other hand, look at !Gangrel, they have weird discipline spread, and despite belonging to single sect they were given additional vampires in each grouping.

I also have little enthusiasm in creating camarilla cards and their clan cards. Mostly because those clans have their mirror clan in sabbat if they need better crypt choices, and aren't screwed when it comes to their own crypt choices (look at number of princes/justicars in best ventrue grouping, 5 cap, two 6 caps, 7 cap, 8 cap, 9 cap, some 10 caps, 11 cap ic, not counting other good vampires) and their power cards (traditions, parity shift, broken stupid justicar master card that let you steal great vampires).

ICL wrote:

On the other hand, saying that Tzimisce have a great 2/3 crypt is an awful argument. Those were cards largely printed about 15 years ago. Malks have a great group 1 crypt in that Aus/Dom/Obf is one of the best discipline combinations possible even if many of the specific vampires are limited and somewhat lacking. That's not an argument for avoiding printing any useful Malks. And, we've certainly seen lots of quality Malks in later groups.

Well, it isn't best argument, but g2-g3 served it's purpose. It have two great crypts (great mid cap crypt and fatties) where every vampire is sabbat, so they can use good sabbat cards, if there are any.

ICL wrote:

Lech wrote:

For a similar example, see how little enthusiasm there is for creating more Camarilla or Camarilla Clan cards, even though it's easy to make cards that don't help P/J decks or ICM decks.

I've been moaning about Camarilla specific cards for ages.

All the other sects offer a pile of cards for even their rank and file but not Camarilla. Compare to the number of cards available to any Sabbat vamp, especially those that belong to Black hand!


And nowadays even the protection belonging to Camarilla grants you vs PTO doesn't matter any more...

Lönkka wrote:

ICL wrote:

For a similar example, see how little enthusiasm there is for creating more Camarilla or Camarilla Clan cards, even though it's easy to make cards that don't help P/J decks or ICM decks.

I've been moaning about Camarilla specific cards for ages.

All the other sects offer a pile of cards for even their rank and file but not Camarilla. Compare to the number of cards available to any Sabbat vamp, especially those that belong to Black hand!


And nowadays even the protection belonging to Camarilla grants you vs PTO doesn't matter any more...

Compare amount of GOOD camarilla cards to GOOD sabbat cards, it's not even close.

GOOD Cammy:
-Alastor
-Anathema
-Archon
-Accounting
-Domain
-Masquarade
-Judgment: Cammy Segregation
-Parity Shift
-Temptation of Greater Power
-Progeny
-Justicars

Good Sabbat:
-Abbot
-Black Forest Base
-Creation Rites
-Under Siege
-Yawp Court
-Cardinal Benediction
-Legacy of Pander

So what if sabbat have 77 sect card and cammy boytoys just 58, when power level of the former is few times worse than the latter ?

Yes, there is reason to be rank-and-file sabbat as you benefit from Abbot, BFB, YC and US, but on the other hand benefit from being titled sabbat vampire is way worse than benefit from power titled cammy boy (Prince+, Primogens are just as shafted as rank-and-file).

The only reasonable reason to be untitled cammy is Judgment: Camarilla Segregation.

Anyway, there are about 110 Brujah + !Brujah compared to 46 Lasombra/Tzimisce vampires, it's damn obvious that Brujah (any cammy clan, really) will have more options (i'm not saying better, just more - but people often think more=better)compared to shafted core mighty sabbat clans.

**My comments

Lech wrote:

Compare amount of GOOD camarilla cards to GOOD sabbat cards, it's not even close.

GOOD Cammy:
-Alastor **Requires Justicar or ICM
-Anathema **Requires P/J
-Archon **Requires P/J
-Accounting **Requires P/J
-Domain **Requires P/J
-Masquarade **Requires P/J
-Judgment: Cammy Segregation **Requires P/J
-Parity Shift **Requires P/J
-Temptation of Greater Power **Requires Justicar
-Progeny **Requires P/J
-Justicars **Um ...

Good Sabbat:
-Abbot **Does not require a title
-Black Forest Base **Does not require a title
-Creation Rites **Requires Sabbat royalty
-Under Siege **Requires a title
-Yawp Court **Does not require a title
-Cardinal Benediction **Does not require a title
-Legacy of Pander **Only helps titleless Pander

So what if sabbat have 77 sect card and cammy boytoys just 58, when power level of the former is few times worse than the latter ?

Yes, there is reason to be rank-and-file sabbat as you benefit from Abbot, BFB, YC and US, but on the other hand benefit from being titled sabbat vampire is way worse than benefit from power titled cammy boy (Prince+, Primogens are just as shafted as rank-and-file).

Seems like you are making the argument for us that Camarilla needs something ... as I said ... that doesn't help P/J and ICM decks.

To beat a dead horse, being a Primogen is (on average) a detriment not a positive. The one attempt to do anything for them was a bust.

Creating cards with "Requires an untitled Camarilla vampire.", "Burn this card if you control a titled Camarilla vampire.", or whatever to make cards nonsynergistic with the good Camarilla effects is easy. Possibly not terribly thematic if overdone, but easy.

More variety is something everyone should receive, though obviously the weaker clans have an argument that they should get it to stop being so weak.

As I'm not attracted to power but rather to variety, I find the Cam clans the least appealing to play and have felt that way for many years.

But, anyway, more than one thing can be true at the same time. Lasombra and Tzimisce should get more because they are being treated as just more clans when they are something a lot more than that in the IP. Meanwhile, the original four Indies just have an absurd number of cards relative to these two Sabbat clans.