Rulings: Groundfighting

Aaron wrote:

I didn't see any discussion on Weakness.

I'm not sure how. It's in the very same thread.
groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/fd9ec8658efc5c1d

LSJ wrote:

Similarly, Weakness would remove some options, but
wouldn't directly restrict strikes.

Aaron wrote:

Here I disagree with LSJ, because the analogy he draws is incorrect. Weakness destroys a skill card, but the vampire with the skill card can still choose a strike that requires the discipline card that round (assuming that we are not considering possible additional strikes).

Why are you artificially introducing this additional restriction?

It's easy to disagree with rulings if you're using your own private card text, sure.

It may be the same thread, but those are two different links you just posted, which do not go to the same web page.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Aaron wrote:

Here I disagree with LSJ, because the analogy he draws is incorrect. Weakness destroys a skill card, but the vampire with the skill card can still choose a strike that requires the discipline card that round (assuming that we are not considering possible additional strikes).

Why are you artificially introducing this additional restriction?

It's easy to disagree with rulings if you're using your own private card text, sure.

Weakness
Combat
Quietus
1
Strike: burn one Master Discipline card on the opposing vampire (Remove excess blood).
As above, and the opposing vampire also takes one damage.

Clearly the analogy between Weakness and a card that deactivates the Eye of Hazimel at the beginning of combat is not exact. Weakness only restricts your options to strike that round if you are going to gain additional strikes. It is troubling that LSJ didn't specify that. If Weakness strikes to destroy a Potence skill card, the opposing minion can still declare a strike of Undead Strength at the same time, even if Weakness is declared with First Strike. If DotB is played and the vampire's only access to is from the Eye of Hazimel, that vampire cannot strike with Undead Strength at all.

ankha wrote:

To make it simple: if it's 100% sure the card restricts your strike choice, you can play GF. Otherwise, you can't.

However, Ankha has given the best explanation of a limited reading of Groundfighting that I have seen so far. Ankha, I nominate you to the rules team. Yes, I can buy that. I like how you have provided an easy test that can be used in any case.

Of course, I'm not crazy about explanations that take into account designer intent, but this is VTES, after all. At least your explanation is explicit about it, rather than other explanations that treat designer intent as self-evident.

Aaron wrote:

Clearly the analogy between Weakness and a card that deactivates the Eye of Hazimel at the beginning of combat is not exact.

Wow, really? Really really? You mean different cards are different, but LSJ tried to apply consistent principles to all of them? Really? I'm shocked.

Aaron wrote:

Weakness only restricts your options to strike that round if you are going to gain additional strikes. It is troubling that LSJ didn't specify that.

It's pretty obvious to anyone who even, you know, looks at the card text.

He also didn't specify that Weakness is on a piece of card, so long by so wide, with this copyright date on it. THE ANALOGY IS NOT EXACT BECAUSE OF THIS.

Aaron wrote:

If DotB is played and the vampire's only access to is from the Eye of Hazimel, that vampire cannot strike with Undead Strength at all.

If I have one blood and you play Weather Control, I can't play a strike that costs one blood at all. Therefore, I can cancel Weather Control with Groundfighting.

My, we're wound up a bit tight today, aren't we? Even Paddington Bear has his bad days, I guess.

I reread what LSJ said about Weakness (in the second link you provided, where it was available), and it's true that the reasoning would cover DotB/Eye of Hazimel. My statement was based around the text from your original link, which only said "see previous discussion on Weakness".

My issue with his discussion of Weakness is that unless you assume that additional strikes can or will be played, the question of Weakness shouldn't even come up. Groundfighting only looks for cards that affect strikes made in the current round. Unless you get additional strikes, destroying a skill card with Weakness won't change the strike that the vampire can declared. I admit, it's not a strong point, but LSJ's discussion implied that Weakness could prevent a vampire from using a skill card to qualify to play strike at the same time Weakness is declared.

Without a specific ruling, yes, I think that Weather Control could be cancelled by Groundfighting. Ankha gave a satisfactory explanation to me to the more limited reading of Groundfighting, so I agree with both of you there.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Aaron wrote:

If DotB is played and the vampire's only access to is from the Eye of Hazimel, that vampire cannot strike with Undead Strength at all.

If I have one blood and you play Weather Control, I can't play a strike that costs one blood at all. Therefore, I can cancel Weather Control with Groundfighting.

I hope you are just being sarcastic here.