Monocle of Clarity (& questions about the deck contents)

TunFiskeMad wrote:

jamesatzephyr wrote:

That's not new with Monocle of Clarity. At any point in the game, a player might ask a misleading question, strike a misleading deal, or just outright lie to you.

Well lying to you concerning deals is allowed, but you are not allowed to lie about the answer to the monocle question.

If I ask a confusing question and a player with a poor grasp of the language misunderstands me, that's my fault. It would be entirely acceptable, however, for a player to ask for the question to be re-stated more simply.

TunFiskeMad wrote:

The question now is how do you interept willfully forgetting the correct answer?

Psychic probes.

Alternatively, if this is a real problem, ask a different question where it won't be a problem.

TunFiskeMad wrote:

Which is all fine and dandy when we are talking about the "game" - but when we talk about mechanical effects in the game, they shouldn't be language dependent.

So the player asks for the question to be stated more simply. Or the asking player states it very simply. Problem solved.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

TunFiskeMad wrote:

Well like people "forgetting" what they are playing - yes there is occasion where you would want to know.

Interpretation of the question asked might vary.

Yes you can ask clear cut questions like: do you have a specific card in hand, but going beyond that you might get "lawyered" if bad at the language or missing a loophole on a card.

That's not new with Monocle of Clarity. At any point in the game, a player might ask a misleading question, strike a misleading deal, or just outright lie to you.

If the problem is "Talking is hard", then that's a problem that needs to be fixed by the player concerned, Monocle or no.

As James mentioned, you're best off with simple, easily verifiable questions.

"Do you have any reaction cards in your hand that could change the targe of a bleed?" is clear.

"Are you currently able to bounce my bleed?" (from the original thread) is not a good question.

1. "Currently" is an ambiguous turn. It is during the untap phase so I don't have any cards that let me do that during the untap. Even "this turn" is potentially vague since things may change during the turn. Asking about cards in hand (and facedown cards such as on Shilmulo Tarot) seems to be your best option.

2. Don't get cute with slang. "Bounce? Flick? I have no idea what that means. Oh you meant a card that *redirects a bleed*. Too bad you didn't ask the right question! Maybe you can try again next turn?"

I have no idea what that means. Oh you meant a card that *redirects a bleed*. Too bad you didn't ask the right question! Maybe you can try again next turn?"

Aside from the "currently" asshattery, he did actually ask the right question. He didn't ask "do you have a card in your hand that allows you to bounce my bleed?" (which would still be a perfectly fine question). He asked "are you able to bounce my bleed".

If you don't understand the slang (or, realistically, are just being a prick) you cannot answer the question properly and thus should ask for clarification. Answering the question with no is cheating.

If I'm asking you if you have a Grapple in your hand and you'd say no and then promptly produce an Immortal Grapple, I'd call a judge. I know you will now start arguing that there is no card named Grapple and that even though Immortal Grapple is a Grapple card, it's actually that - a grapple card and not a grapple.

If you don't understand the question (or more likely, are looking for loopholes to lie), then ask for a clarification.

Izaak wrote:

Aside from the "currently" asshattery, he did actually ask the right question. He didn't ask "do you have a card in your hand that allows you to bounce my bleed?" (which would still be a perfectly fine question). He asked "are you able to bounce my bleed".

"Bounce" isn't a proper game term. Just because you use it as shorthand for a specific meaning, doesn't mean that other people will know what you are referring to. I've seen some players say that they "hug" you (instead of Immortal Grappling you). If someone asks you if you have "hugging" cards in your hand, some people might rightfully be confused. Same with the term "flick" (which sometimes people use instead of "bounce"). Or how about "lockdown" or "paralyzing" (no longer a game term)? If someone asks me if I have paralyzing cards in my hand, I'm not sure what he means! Does he refer to Stake & Rowan Ring only? Or does he mean something else? Not everyone is familiar with backstory, so when asking Monocle questions you shouldn't be using Warlocks for Tremere, fleshcrafters for Tzimisce (would Matteus or anyone with count?), Blue Bloods for Ventrue. You shouldn't ask for cards that require "cub scout" or "bear face" or whatever (simply say ABOMBWE).

"Are you able to bounce my bleed" is a different question than "do you have cards in your hand that can change the target of a bleed" which is different than "do you have cards in your hand that can change the target of *my* bleed." In the case of the last two questions, if I ask my predator or someone cross-table that question and he has My Enemy's Enemy, it would be yes in one case but no in another (he can change the target of a bleed, but not the target of *my* bleed).

If you have a hand full of Deflections, but all your minions are tapped (or have no blood), then the likely answer seems "no." Though if someone cross-table Babbles you, you would be able to then Deflect. (And on that topic, if someone asks me if I can "Deflect a bleed," and I don't have Deflection but I do have Redirection of Telepathic Misdirection, then I can rightly say no, I can't DEFLECT a bleed).

If you have Deflection and you are all tapped out, but you have a Second Tradition, it's tricky because being able to Deflect requires an action you can attempt to block, and then you need to fail to block it after playing Second Tradition. It's potentially unclear whether you are *able* to Deflect in this case.

If I have a 9-cap with 2 blood and Lost in Translation, I can "change the target" of a bleed by your Anson but not by your Alexandra. So if you simply ask whether it constitutes "able to bounce my bleed," it's unclear because it depends on who you are bleeding with.

If you don't understand the slang (or, realistically, are just being a prick) you cannot answer the question properly and thus should ask for clarification. Answering the question with no is cheating.

As the player with the Monocle of Clarity and choosing to use it, I think it is the onus on that player to come up with the proper question. Just like how players should be held more responsible for knowing the card text of cards in their own deck. (Rarely, you will see players include old versions of cards, and then claim they didn't know that they were errata'ed. Sometimes it might be a genuine mistake, but when certain tournament-level players consistently do it over and over again, you begin to wonder....)

If I'm asking you if you have a Grapple in your hand and you'd say no and then promptly produce an Immortal Grapple, I'd call a judge. I know you will now start arguing that there is no card named Grapple and that even though Immortal Grapple is a Grapple card, it's actually that - a grapple card and not a grapple.

Sometimes people use Grapple as meaning the specific card "Immortal Grapple." It could also refer to any card with Grapple in the title. Or any card with the Grapple trait.

If there are multiple valid game interpretations, then I would assume that fulfilling any of them (title, trait) would require a "yes" answer. "Bounce" is different because it is not a proper game term. Grapple is a trait, and appears in card titles.

If someone asks me if I have a Grapple in my hand (and he's playing a weenie Presence deck with lots of Majesty and is probably referring to just Immortal Grapple) and I don't have an Immortal Grapple but I do have a Shoulder Drop in my hand, I can (and should) answer yes. I do have a "Grapple" card in my hand. It was a poor question if he meant to ask if I had an *Immortal Grapple* in my hand.

Before Third Edition, Ventrue Investment was not a card with the "Investment" trait. So if someone asked you if you had an Investment, what would have been the proper answer?

If someone asks me about Gargoyles in my hand or uncontrolled region, it could include Gargoyle vampires, Razor Bat / Stone Dog / Rock Cat (Gargoyle creatures but not Gargoyle vampires), or Gargoyle Slave (Gargoyle in the title but not a Gargoyle vampire or a Gargoyle creature. Has neither the Gargoyle *or* Slave traits).

I would assume that "Presence cards" refers to the Presence skill card and possibly Disarming Presence. I wouldn't assume that he means *any* cards that require Presence.

echiang wrote:

I would assume that "Presence cards" refers to the Presence skill card and possibly Disarming Presence. I wouldn't assume that he means *any* cards that require Presence.

I disagree here.
The name of the Disciplines that are required for a card are "card text" that have been replaced by symbols for ease of understanding.
So, imo, if I'm asked if I have a Protean card in my hand and I have an Earth Meld, I must say "yes".

The same way Minions have Clan symbols.

Ferox doesn't have "Gargoyle" written on him. He has
Same thing, rule-wise, I think.
And you agree with Gargoyle also including Gargoyle vampires (as do I), so stands to reason Presence cards also include Treachery.

I agree with you in the Master: Discipline cards too.

So we basically need to use game terms or game effects that are card text or in the rules.
And to get a 100% truthful answer, we need to ask something about:
- Hand
- Uncontrolled Region
- Research Region
- Face down cards in the ready region
- Cards that the player has seen for sure and are on his deck (after Marrakesh Codex, Maris Streck's less used ability, etc)

Does this sums it up?

And on that topic, if someone asks me if I can "Deflect a bleed," and I don't have Deflection but I do have Redirection of Telepathic Misdirection, then I can rightly say no, I can't DEFLECT a bleed

Yeh sure, and by doing so you're just being a dick.

As the player with the Monocle of Clarity and choosing to use it, I think it is the onus on that player to come up with the proper question.

It's ALSO up to the guy answering to actually understand the question in the first place instead of making up a question of his own and answering that.