Byzar and Carlton van Wyk

Byzar
"If Byzar would be burned, put a burn counter on him and move him to torpor instead."

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Carlton Van Wyk (Hunter)
"During your discard phase, you may burn Carlton to burn a vampire who has committed diablerie since your last turn."

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6.5.4. Diablerize a Vampire in Torpor
"To have a vampire diablerize a vampire in torpor, announce the action and tap the acting vampire. If the action is successful, the victim is diablerized (see below).

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6.5.5. Diablerie

Diablerie is the act of sending another vampire to Final Death by drinking his blood. Only ready vampires can commit diablerie. Vampires marked as Blood Cursed cannot commit diablerie. The vampire committing diablerie is called the diablerist. Diablerie is resolved as follows:

- All blood on the victim is moved to the diablerist. Blood in excess of his capacity drains off as normal.
- The diablerist may take any equipment on the victim.
- The victim is burned (sent to his owner's ash heap). Any cards and counters on him are also burned.
- If the victim was older (had a higher capacity) than the diablerist, the diablerist can be given a Discipline. His controller may go through her library, ash heap and hand to get a master Discipline card to put on the diablerist and then reshuffle her library or draw back up to her hand size as necessary. This may increase the diablerist's capacity by 1, but does not automatically give the diablerist a blood to fill that new capacity.
- If the victim was Red List, the diablerist may receive trophies (see section 11).

The steps of diablerie are treated as a single unit. No effects can be used to interrupt the diablerie; effects may be played either before or after, as appropriate. After diablerie, a blood hunt may be called on the diablerist."

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I guess the questions here revolve around Byzar's card text using the word "instead".

Q1: If a vampire diablerizes Byzar, is the diablerist able to obtain Byzar's blood and/or equipment and/or a discipline card, even though Byzar's card text says that Byzar is moved to torpor "instead"?

Q2: Does Carlton van Wyk see the diablerist as "a vampire who has committed diablerie" even though one of the inseperable effects of diablerie was negated by Byzar's "instead" card text?

Don't all the steps of diablerie happen in order?

Wouldn't the only difference when Byzar is diablerized be that at the third line item he goes to the uncontrolled region instead of the ash heap?

How does that interrupt the diablerie steps? Is his effect even "used", since it isn't at-will?

KevinM wrote:

Q1: If a vampire diablerizes Byzar, is the diablerist able to obtain Byzar's blood and/or equipment and/or a discipline card, even though Byzar's card text says that Byzar is moved to torpor "instead"?

No.
[LSJ 20100228] wrote:

> What happenes to Byzars blood and equipments when he is diablerized?
The diablerie is unsuccessful.
No equipment is moved. No blood is moved.
groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/4ba13f058e6a0c21

> And also is there a blood hunt called on the diablerist or not?
No blood hunt is called. No referendum is conducted to see if a blood
hunt will be called.

KevinM wrote:

Q2: Does Carlton van Wyk see the diablerist as "a vampire who has committed diablerie" even though one of the inseperable effects of diablerie was negated by Byzar's "instead" card text?

No. The diablerie wasn't successful (previous link).

I would submit that since it is impossible for a player using a rulebook to know that not being burned makes a diablerie action unsuccessful -- or is the action successful, just not the diablerie? -- we need to add a sentence to the end of 6.5.5 stating something about negation of any of these steps results in an unsuccessful diablerie action.

Pascal wrote:

KevinM wrote:

Q1: If a vampire diablerizes Byzar, is the diablerist able to obtain Byzar's blood and/or equipment and/or a discipline card, even though Byzar's card text says that Byzar is moved to torpor "instead"?

No.

So the timing in the complete rule reference cited by Kevin is wrong. According to it, Byzar's special only kicks in after the blood and equipment have been moved, and I don't see any reason to backtrack at that point. Shouldn't it be more something like:
1)burn the diablerized vampire and set his blood/equipment aside.
2)move all the blood set aside to the diablerist, up to his capacity.
3)the diablerist may take any of the equipment set aside.

Also, according to the existing timing, the blood is moved before fetching a discipline, so the blood of the victim cannot be used to fill the extra capacity point. That is extremely counter-intuitive. With the timing I propose, fecthing the discipline could be moved between the steps 1 and 2.

Perhaps:
"Any card or effect that prevents the vampire being diablerized from burning renders the diablerie unsuccessful. None of the other effects of diablerie (moving blood and equipment, etc.) occur."