Play to Win situation

No, that isn't bad for the game or community.

This is a selfish opinion. Try to make people learn to play vtes in non english speaking country where every player is a valuable asset, and I might take you serious.

...I can think of, when a judge raises an arm, a flag, or blows a whistle and makes a decision, it is made...

As I previously explained - this game is not a sport. Sports do not recognise terms of "deal", "dealbreaking" and "play-to-win". I can elaborate further if needed. Also, I did not mean to be offensive when I said that you would have known of decision changes made by referee if you played sport. I meant - if you had experience in some sport you would have thought otherwise. Again, not that vtes is a sport, to beginb with.

I've never had a player begin a tournament, with me as the judge, who wasn't prepared to submit to my rulings.

...and this is a root of your problem. You obviously never played with Italians. Or tournaments with many foreigners and people from different communities.

Kevin, I will try to explain myself. I started discussion from a point that one cannot enforce "play-to-win" rule without a talk with the player that is suspected of rule breaking, to determine if his actions were bad play or malicious.


Furthermore, as I stated, no rules give a judge right to touch in-game stuff. His interference is verbal. Above all, some of my remarks were personally pointed at jamesatzephyr. His tone on this forum is a bit offensive. He often posts comments that are his personal opinions wrapped up in rulings, and does not care to elaborate them much. Discussion went a bit astray when I tried to prove him that he cannot disregard other pepole's opinions is some subjects, specifically with "play-to-win". This rule can be applied very personal and can be bent as judge sees it fit. And many judges misunderstand the abovementioned rule, as I posted before.

Instead, the judge has to substitute their own reasoning, using their own judgment.

It's simply about judging what is reasonable in the circumstances.

This is pure example of one-sided decision.

Sometimes, the judge will have to force a player to do something,

This is clearly not true, as judge cannot force anyone to do anything. He can eventually disqualify a player, and that is all. He can restore game to previous conditions, tho.

I have the rules and multiple rulings to support my position.

Mixed with the above, this last sentence seals the casket.

Guy's general behavior toward people is offensive at least, and when I read his answers to acbishop and Dorrinal, I begun discussion. I introduced situation with disobedient players just to prove that his arrogant behavior is not applicable in real events. When faced with fact that he cannot actually force someone to do anything in this hobby, he stopped posting.

At last, I fundamentally do not agree with "play-to-win" rule since a player with enough verbal qualities can place enough arguments to unable judge interfering.
Example in amenophobises game:
D starts untap with two transfers, then asks if B would pull him out of torpor. B answers that by his turn D would be ousted from Dragonbound. D answers - darn! what an oversight, I'm ousted.
And all a judge can do is to stand by in grief, cursing his not so clearly defined "play-to-win" rule. Or he can order player D, that "misplayed", to put his pool back, giving D two VP's. Keep in mind that a VtES judge does not have a right do decide if a player is lying or not.

Megabaja wrote:

KevinM wrote:

No, that isn't bad for the game or community.

This is a selfish opinion. Try to make people learn to play vtes in non english speaking country where every player is a valuable asset, and I might take you serious.

The USA is experiencing *huge* problems with retaining the VTES player base right now. In my experience, Americans are much more fickle with their entertainment dollar than Europeans are. Continuing MMORPG development along with a malaise regarding the destruction of White Wolf has caused a drop in the player base over here.

Language has nothing to do with it. Otherwise, why have the greatest concentrations of VTES players in the world for the modern era have been in Spain?

Megabaja wrote:

KevinM wrote:

I've never had a player begin a tournament, with me as the judge, who wasn't prepared to submit to my rulings.

...and this is a root of your problem. You obviously never played with Italians. Or tournaments with many foreigners and people from different communities.

It may be that there are socio-historical problems with Europeans from various countries trying to get along with one another, but I fail to see how that is a problem with 20 or 30 or 100 guys playing a CCG. The problem is that the players are acting like jerks. Every so often I hear these stories about a faraway land where players are allowed to act like jerks and get away with it.

If player's aren't willing to submit to your authority as judge, DQ and eject them. Allowing bad behavior not only encourages more bad behavior, but makes them as human beings more willing to bully other human beings.

Megabaja wrote:

Kevin, I will try to explain myself. I started discussion from a point that one cannot enforce "play-to-win" rule without a talk with the player that is suspected of rule breaking, to determine if his actions were bad play or malicious.

This is what I do. I do not disagree with this. I believe this to be the best style in which to judge. But a judge doesn't *have* to do this. Different judges have different styles.

(I will not comment on your disagreements about another poster. That's between you and him.)

Megabaja wrote:

At last, I fundamentally do not agree with "play-to-win" rule since a player with enough verbal qualities can place enough arguments to unable judge interfering.

A player's verbal discussion should not confuse a judge, otherwise that isn't a good judge. A judge in VTES shouldn't make a ruling until stepping over to the table, hearing the problem, and allowing everyone to say what THE JUDGE (not the players) needs to hear in order to make a ruling. When the ruling is made, players that are not jerks should accept the ruling and continue to play on.

For players that are unwilling to do this, see my "DQ and ejected" comment, above.

KevinM wrote:

Language has nothing to do with it. Otherwise, why have the greatest concentrations of VTES players in the world for the modern era have been in Spain?

Megabaja wrote:

KevinM wrote:

I've never had a player begin a tournament, with me as the judge, who wasn't prepared to submit to my rulings.

...and this is a root of your problem. You obviously never played with Italians. Or tournaments with many foreigners and people from different communities.

It may be that there are socio-historical problems with Europeans from various countries trying to get along with one another, but I fail to see how that is a problem with 20 or 30 or 100 guys playing a CCG. The problem is that the players are acting like jerks. Every so often I hear these stories about a faraway land where players are allowed to act like jerks and get away with it.
.

I think Megabaja was referring to Italians being quite passionate when they talk about the game with other Italians and the comment about multi-nationals is a comment on language as a barrier to verbal reasoning when judging rather than any "socio-historical " issue with them disliking each other based on culture/ethnicity/language.

It can be difficult to judge events where you have to think in multiple languages and explain rulings/decisions to people whose first language isn't your own - that's why i'm glad that people like Pascal and Gines get tha job.

I've never had any issues in the UK (where 50% of our regular players have English as a second language) but obviously our polayers use English everyday rather than jsut once a year at a big tournament in a faraway land.

Squidalot wrote:

I think Megabaja was referring to Italians being quite passionate when they talk about the game with other Italians and the comment about multi-nationals is a comment on language as a barrier to verbal reasoning when judging rather than any "socio-historical " issue with them disliking each other based on culture/ethnicity/language.

Exactly

Pendargon wrote:

Squidalot wrote:

I think Megabaja was referring to Italians being quite passionate when they talk about the game with other Italians and the comment about multi-nationals is a comment on language as a barrier to verbal reasoning when judging rather than any "socio-historical " issue with them disliking each other based on culture/ethnicity/language.

Exactly

I still fail to understand what makes Italian players different to any non-Italian player regarding following the rules of the tournament?

I have judged enough games with Italian players participating, and everything went very smoothly: no needless arguing, accepting the ruling, etc.