Conditioning + DI - SOS answer needed

So you can play nother modifier after this:

Conditioning
Type: Action Modifier
Requires: Dominate
Cost: 1 blood
You cannot play another action modifier to increase this bleed amount.
[dom] +2 bleed
[DOM] +3 bleed.

But not another CC after this:

Carrion Crows
Type: Combat
Requires: Animalism
Only usable before range is chosen.
[ani] The opposing minion takes 1R damage each round of combat during strike resolution. A vampire can play only one Carrion Crows each combat.
[ANI] As above, but for 2R damage.


I don't understand how cancel stops "you cannot play another action modifier to increase this bleed amount." but not "A vampire can play only one Carrion Crows each combat."

If the cards are played it seems to me both stipulations should stay in play?

TunFiskeMad wrote:

I don't understand how cancel stops "you cannot play another action modifier to increase this bleed amount." but not "A vampire can play only one Carrion Crows each combat."

It's written on the card.

The first disallow playing more bleed modifier. The first card is played, it is cancelled, none of its text is applied, so you can play threat for example. Threat have no text preventing it from being played.

Carrion crow, on the other hand, have one : "you can only play one Carrion Crow per combat". So, when you want to play another one, the text on the second one prevent you from doing so.

It is a bit subtle, but the difference is pretty clear. Most of the confusion come from the fact that the first card have no effect in both case, while you may believe it have some effect.

It's not directly to do with a card text or a cancel, but the sequence of play.

A card MUST be played if it is to be Cancelled.

Even if a card is Cancelled it has been PLAYED.

Therefore, CC looks back and sees that a copy of CC was played and prohibits itself from being played again.

Conditioning does not see any action modifier which has increased the bleed, so another action modifier to increase the bleed is playable AND that new one prevents any future action modifier from being played (assuming).

You still can't play a second Conditioning because you have already played a copy of that action modifier on this action.

The difference is that "A vampire can play only one Carrion Crows each combat" is logically equivalent to:

a) This vampire cannot play another Carrion Crows this combat,
AND
b) This vampire cannot play this card if he has already played another Carrion Crows this combat.

(yes, it usually means that the second Carrion Crows gets hammered twice ).

Conditioning only has a). None of the effects stay in play, but the card has been played nonetheless. When you try to play the second Carrion Crows, the b) on the second Carrion Crows kicks in and prevents you from playing it. Conditioning does not have that b) so nothing prevents it from being played.

A canceled card has no effect.
Anything written on a DI'd Carrion Crows or Conditioning doesn't apply. Or Wake with Evening's Freshness.

Here are a couple of examples. They're here to explain how "cancel" works. It basically rubs away all the text of a card.

DI'd wrote:

Name: Conditioning
Cardtype: Action modifier
Discipline: Dominate
Text:

Non-existant user wrote:

Name: Carrion Crows
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Animalism
Text:

DI'd wrote:

Name: Wake with Evening's Freshness
Cartype: Reaction
Text:

Note that you do replace immediately a DI'd WwEF. Or a DI'd Mirror Walk. Or a Sudden'ed Liquidation.

Now, what's the big difference between Conditioning and Carrion Crows?
The answer (again) is on the card:
Conditioning reads "after this card, you can't play modifiers to increase the bleed amount". This part is only triggered when the card is played and not canceled ("canceled cards have no effects", as quoted from the Rulebook above).
Carrion Crows reads "you can play only one CC each combat".

The difference is not with the canceled card, but with the next one you'd play. If Conditioning, Threats, Eyes of Chaos, Aire of Elation, Old Friends, ... all read "Only one bleed increasing action modifier can be played per action", then that cardtext would prevent any Threats from being played after Conditioning was DI'd (although, even that might be debatable).

TunFiskeMad wrote:

f the cards are played it seems to me both stipulations should stay in play?

Actually, none remains in play.

yep - it was just me being daft at work it seems - I'll keep away from the boards while working in the future.