Rules Team Rulings - 22-APR-2013

Jeff wrote:

Thanks for this update. But, ban Lilith's Blessing? Really?

Clearly the Rules Team operates independently from the forum, but some context for why this card is to be banned would be helpful.

In the latest poll, only 5 of 68 respondents said "Ban the thing, it's too bad for the game."

vekn.net/index.php/forum/40-polling-forum/16066-poll-liliths-blessing

From the TWDA since January 1, 2012:

255 Total Decks
76 had Lilith's Blessing
13 had Minion Tap
34 had Ashur Tablets
36 had Anthelios, The Red Star
40 had Parity Shift
58 had Blood Doll
73 had Vessel
102 had Villein
113 had Deflection
117 had Giant's Blood
178 had Pentex(TM) Subversion

I'd also like to hear a justification for banning Lilith's Blessing. I don't feel strongly about keeping it or banning it, but I'd like to know that there's a logic to it, and that the logic was backed by conversation with playtesters or the VEKN community.

ReverendRevolver wrote:

The effect of minion tap for everything as a trifle and then gain 3 blood is probably too strong, definately with multiple master phase actions. But having to fetch a skill card, or intending to fetch a skill card is fair for a mastercthat requires setup to activate.

Certainly, anyone who has built decks and played at tournaments since Villein was printed knows that Villein is the problem, not Lilith's Blessing. The problem becomes that Villein has already been reworded, so another look at it means that it is likely too powerful and is going to get banned. And if Villein gets banned, 90% of the tournament decks get significantly altered, and a sizable part of your player base probably just calls it quits right there.

ReverendRevolver wrote:

I do not question weakening those annoying mpa decks, i just dont see why the mechanic is now being removed when errata would have been easier, or at the least more practical.

What errata would that be?

ReverendRevolver wrote:

Also, Pascal: thank you for making Impulse go into a rulebook, thats needed to happen for awhile, and will hopefully make people less moronic when i interrupt thier transfering to act through madness network.

You never were allowed to do this, as the acting player always had the opportunity ("impulse") to act before you, so until they finished all their transfers, you didn't yet have a chance to act.

DeathInABottle wrote:

I'd also like to hear a justification for banning Lilith's Blessing. I don't feel strongly about keeping it or banning it, but I'd like to know that there's a logic to it, and that the logic was backed by conversation with playtesters or the VEKN community.

Villein + Lilith's Blessing appeared in >90% of casual and tournament decks that I've seen and played since Lilith's was printed. The effect was too powerful and efficient for a single MPA.

Did you not see this in your home games?
Did you not see this in tournament play?
If you did, was it not too powerful and efficient?

KevinM wrote:

DeathInABottle wrote:

I'd also like to hear a justification for banning Lilith's Blessing. I don't feel strongly about keeping it or banning it, but I'd like to know that there's a logic to it, and that the logic was backed by conversation with playtesters or the VEKN community.

Villein + Lilith's Blessing appeared in >90% of casual and tournament decks that I've seen and played since Lilith's was printed. The effect was too powerful and efficient for a single MPA.

Did you not see this in your home games?
Did you not see this in tournament play?
If you did, was it not too powerful and efficient?

No, I didn't see it in my weekly home games in Victoria, nor in either of the tournaments I played in the four years I played there. Note that I say "either" of the tournaments: Victoria, BC doesn't have a very active scene, so I doubt that it represents VTES as a whole. Even though your particular meta is undoubtedly more active than mine was, I doubt that it represents VTES as a whole either, or that any one meta - Pascal's included - could accurately represent VTES. That's why I restricted my question to a request for the logic that informed the banning of the card. As Jeff pointed out, discussions on the forum have not been univocal, so I'd like to know how the decision was arrived at.

KevinM wrote:

IANPB but since Villein is now an auto-include in 90% of tournament decks, a Lilith's Blessing is also a no-brainer auto-include as well.

A bit of hyperbole there. Per my stats above from SecretLibrary.info, your statement is not borne out. In fact, only 48 of the 255 TWDs since 1/1/2012 feature both Lilith's Blessing and Villein. That means 25 of the decks using Lilith's Blessing (more than 1 in 3) declined to use Villein. IMO, that's a good thing for deck variety and construction.

And their combined effect, continued throughout the game whenever a Villein is played -- contrast with the powerful Once Per Game effect of Giant's Blood -- is too powerful for a single MPA.

In your opinion sure. Apparently also in the opinion of the Rules Team. Not in the opinion of the vast majority of respondents to the poll, for what that's worth.

If it needs more testing, why not let it remain field tested while a fix is also being worked on?

Kevin, madness network doesnt let me screw with someones transfer phase. The impulse passes from them onc they completexthier minion phase actions, and rerurns to them anytime after one of my untapped malkavians completes an action.

Before it wasnt actually in the core rules, now it is.

And Darby has with words explained how ashurs violates a core game concept. Making it apply only to minion cards is logical.
As for lilliths, making the skill card mandatory fixes the problem of brokenness.