Rules Team Rulings - 22-APR-2013
23 Apr 2013 05:22 - 23 Apr 2013 05:26 #47418
by PetriWessman
Replied by PetriWessman on topic Re: Rules Team Rulings - 22-APR-2013
Lilith's Blessing banned! Awesome 
As people have noted, the real problem is the Villein + LB combo, which is just Too Damn Good(tm). While I still hate Villein, at least seeing that combo go away from tournament games is a good thing in my book.
Even on its own, LB is too good. It's usable in any deck, it's not unique, it gives tons of free blood, and it allows you to fetch a discipline card. It wallpapers many previous cards, in one neat package.
Ideally, of course, the card could be reworded to make it permissible again (i.e. nerfed).

As people have noted, the real problem is the Villein + LB combo, which is just Too Damn Good(tm). While I still hate Villein, at least seeing that combo go away from tournament games is a good thing in my book.
Even on its own, LB is too good. It's usable in any deck, it's not unique, it gives tons of free blood, and it allows you to fetch a discipline card. It wallpapers many previous cards, in one neat package.
Ideally, of course, the card could be reworded to make it permissible again (i.e. nerfed).
Last edit: 23 Apr 2013 05:26 by PetriWessman.
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23 Apr 2013 05:32 #47420
by Lech

Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
Replied by Lech on topic Re: Rules Team Rulings - 22-APR-2013
@Kevin: Villein is problem because lilith's blessing and giant's blood. Giant's Blood made villein autoinclude, not the other way around.
@Jeff:Check how many deck sport Villein with either GB or LB.
@All: It's blood creation that move from vampires into pool a problem, not just moving blood from vampires into pool.
NC Qualifier
Budapest, Hungary
Rack, LB, GB, 5xV + Gora special
El Barón se va a vender sus pieles
Palma de Mallorca, Spain
3xLB, GB, 8xV, 2xGolconda, 12xAshur's T
Crusade: Krakow
Krakow, Poland
GB, 2xLB, 5xV (3xHeidelberg - MRapes)
Justicar Retribution XIII: Prince of the Rodeo
Helsinki, Finland
LB, 4xV, Blood Turnip
There are more decks that share the pattern. There are also decks with token amount of villeins which opted to not use GB and LB.
In top 20 decks with more than 3 villeins, no one opt to not use Lilith's Blessing, Giant's Blood or Voter Cap. Would they still use such amount of villeins without those cards ?
@Jeff:Check how many deck sport Villein with either GB or LB.
@All: It's blood creation that move from vampires into pool a problem, not just moving blood from vampires into pool.
NC Qualifier
Budapest, Hungary
Rack, LB, GB, 5xV + Gora special
El Barón se va a vender sus pieles
Palma de Mallorca, Spain
3xLB, GB, 8xV, 2xGolconda, 12xAshur's T
Crusade: Krakow
Krakow, Poland
GB, 2xLB, 5xV (3xHeidelberg - MRapes)
Justicar Retribution XIII: Prince of the Rodeo
Helsinki, Finland
LB, 4xV, Blood Turnip
There are more decks that share the pattern. There are also decks with token amount of villeins which opted to not use GB and LB.
In top 20 decks with more than 3 villeins, no one opt to not use Lilith's Blessing, Giant's Blood or Voter Cap. Would they still use such amount of villeins without those cards ?






Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
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23 Apr 2013 06:36 #47430
by echiang
1. Lilith's Blessing was before my time as Storyline Coordinator (so I had nothing to do with it).
2. Lilith's Blessing was playtested in all of the playtest rounds for Heirs to the Blood.
You are free to argue that the playtesting process was flawed, or the playtesters didn't do a good job, or LSJ dropped the ball. I take no position on the matter, but you have the right to your own opinion.
But Lilith's Blessing *was* playtested (or available to playtest) for three rounds.
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
Replied by echiang on topic Re: Rules Team Rulings - 22-APR-2013
Aaron, that is incorrect. For some reason there is this persistent rumor / belief / urban legend that Lilith's Blessing was never playtested. I've mentioned it before, and I'll mention it again (to correct misinformation):Banning LB is fairly easy to justify because it is a storyline promo card that was not (supposedly) playtested.
1. Lilith's Blessing was before my time as Storyline Coordinator (so I had nothing to do with it).
2. Lilith's Blessing was playtested in all of the playtest rounds for Heirs to the Blood.
You are free to argue that the playtesting process was flawed, or the playtesters didn't do a good job, or LSJ dropped the ball. I take no position on the matter, but you have the right to your own opinion.
But Lilith's Blessing *was* playtested (or available to playtest) for three rounds.
pckvtes.wordpress.com
@pckvtes
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23 Apr 2013 06:46 - 23 Apr 2013 06:55 #47431
by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Re: Rules Team Rulings - 22-APR-2013
Lilith's Blessing nerf has already been heavily discussed.
www.vekn.net/index.php/forum/41-card-balance-a-strategy-discussion/28610-liliths-blessing-a-poor-nyc-prince-simple-question
www.vekn.net/index.php/forum/41-card-balance-a-strategy-discussion/14556-on-liliths-blessing-3-qproblematic-cardq
www.vekn.net/index.php/forum/41-card-balance-a-strategy-discussion/14426-concerning-liliths-blessing-ashur-tablets-and-liquidation
Maybe it's too good to gain 3 pool per vampire using Villein (like Political Stranglehold, but delayed in time).
In truth, I don't really care if it's banned or not, and I don't want Pascal to say why, because it will start again the enless discussion about pros and cons. It would be like contesting a judge's decision. If Pascal is legitimate (and I think he is, and I'm sure he weighted pros and cons long enough), knowing why is irrelevant.
I don't think LSJ ever explained why PTO had been banned, and it's maybe better like this.
EDIT: more food for thoughts: newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/2007-12/msg00569.html
www.vekn.net/index.php/forum/41-card-balance-a-strategy-discussion/28610-liliths-blessing-a-poor-nyc-prince-simple-question
www.vekn.net/index.php/forum/41-card-balance-a-strategy-discussion/14556-on-liliths-blessing-3-qproblematic-cardq
www.vekn.net/index.php/forum/41-card-balance-a-strategy-discussion/14426-concerning-liliths-blessing-ashur-tablets-and-liquidation
Maybe it's too good to gain 3 pool per vampire using Villein (like Political Stranglehold, but delayed in time).
In truth, I don't really care if it's banned or not, and I don't want Pascal to say why, because it will start again the enless discussion about pros and cons. It would be like contesting a judge's decision. If Pascal is legitimate (and I think he is, and I'm sure he weighted pros and cons long enough), knowing why is irrelevant.
I don't think LSJ ever explained why PTO had been banned, and it's maybe better like this.
EDIT: more food for thoughts: newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Rec/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/2007-12/msg00569.html
Last edit: 23 Apr 2013 06:55 by Ankha.
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23 Apr 2013 06:56 #47432
by porphyrion
Replied by porphyrion on topic Re: Rules Team Rulings - 22-APR-2013
villein is a much much more unbalanced card than lilith's blessing ever was imo (but villein allows for high-caps to be played so i'm ok with it). having to retrieve a master discipline card or making it unique (less fun) seem like simple solutions to dealing with the card. giant's blood is also crazier than lilith's (i even accepted GB; it's just one of the -admittedly more unbalanced- parameters of the vtes-environment).
combination with multiple master phase actions also seem like the way bigger problem (anson, girls -cybele-nana-aksinya). huitzilopochtli's special (pay 1:blood: might hold the key to that problem...)
personally, i would have guessed it would have been ashur that got the ban as it's just terribly designed (it ridicules
or
recursion which it shouldn't imo as so many cards are specifically dedicated to that mechanic/lore)...
voter cap (modifier) in priciple should never gain more blood than a fifth tradition (actual action requiring prince/justicar and other vampire).
_sidenote, shouldn't it be 'It' instead of 'If' in the Impulse-section?
combination with multiple master phase actions also seem like the way bigger problem (anson, girls -cybele-nana-aksinya). huitzilopochtli's special (pay 1:blood: might hold the key to that problem...)
personally, i would have guessed it would have been ashur that got the ban as it's just terribly designed (it ridicules



voter cap (modifier) in priciple should never gain more blood than a fifth tradition (actual action requiring prince/justicar and other vampire).
_sidenote, shouldn't it be 'It' instead of 'If' in the Impulse-section?
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23 Apr 2013 08:41 #47437
by Pascal Bertrand
Replied by Pascal Bertrand on topic Re: Rules Team Rulings - 22-APR-2013
The decision was taken not to errata any card until cards with updated cardtext are available.My question is, why no Ashur errata? I assumed the word "minion" would be added between 13 and "cards", or it would be banned.
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