Bima + Aura of Invencibility

A Bima with Presence Skil Card plays a Charming Lobby wording Kine Resources Contested can play an Aura of Invencibility as an vampire due to RTR20070707

Next time this Bima calls a new Charming Lobby wording KRC he is again seen as a vampire and has a vote from Aura, and if this referendum passed, get another counter, if fails, Bima is burned. Correct?

Next,

If there is a lingering effect of Charming Lobby, a Bima with Presence cannot call a passing referendum (from CL, of course) due to LSJ rulling .

But RTR20070707 says: "An ally that plays a card "as a vampire" is treated "as a vampire" for all puposes of the resolution of the play of that card including any continuing effects, but not for effects the card generates for being in play."

During the start of the referendum of the second CL does Bima seen as a vampire, so the first CL have to passes it automatically, correct?

Thank you very much.

Bima
Type: Ally
Requires: Follower of Set
Cost: 1 blood
Ghoul with 2 life. 2 strength, 1 bleed.
When this Bima enters play, move a master: Discipline card to it from your hand or burn this Bima. The Bima may play cards that require the basic level of that Discipline as a vampire.


Charming Lobby
Type: Action
Requires: Presence
+1 stealth political action.

 This vampire calls a referendum listed on a political action card in your hand (play that card) or allowed by an effect in play. If the referendum passes, then the next referendum called by any vampire thereafter passes automatically.

 As above, and this vampire gains 2 votes in that first referendum.





Aura of Invincibility

Type: Action Modifier

Cost: 1 blood

Only usable during a referendum, before any votes are cast.

If this referendum passes, put this card on the acting vampire and put a counter on this card. This vampire gets an additional vote for each counter on this card in referendums he or she calls. Add a counter to this card when a referendum called by this vampire passes. If a referendum called by this vampire fails, burn this card and send this vampire to torpor. A vampire can have only one Aura of Invincibility.

lommez wrote:

A Bima with Presence Skil Card plays a Charming Lobby wording Kine Resources Contested can play an Aura of Invencibility as an vampire due to RTR20070707

No it can't.

Aura of Invincibility does not require Presence, and the Bima's special ability lets them play cards that require Presence as a vampire (since you've selected the Presence discipline).

This means that cards that have a lingering effect to "this vampire" continue to function. It doesn't mean that any other card, at all, sees the card as a vampire. When you try to play Aura of Invincibiilty with Bima, AoI sees Bima as the ally that it is - and so cannot be played.

lommez wrote:

If there is a lingering effect of Charming Lobby, a Bima with Presence cannot call a passing referendum (from CL, of course) due to LSJ rulling.

It's arguable that this ruling is overturned by the 7-7-7 ruling, as Charming Lobby's persistence is somewhat a lingering effect. So a CL played by this Bima would provide this Bima with a lingering effect that sees it as a vampire, but not other Bimas.

That feels a bit icky, but logically follows.

RTR20070707: "An ally that plays a card "as a vampire" is treated "as a vampire" for all purposes of the resolution of the play of that card including any continuing effects, but not for effects the card generates for being in play."

All purposes seems complete enough to support cards played as a vampire during the action, respecting requirements.

Effect generated for being in play like Shadow of the Beast can be played but the maneuver cannot be used by a Bima with Protean Skill Card. But a Bima with Protean can Mantle of Bestial Majesty, untap, and rush a vampire to strike 2 strenght aggravated, a continuing effect, not a card in play. Correct?

I undestand that a Bima with Auspex Skill can Nose of the Round a vampire and play Taste of Vitae, since the action is still resolving.

So a Bima with Presence can play AoI, since the Charming Lobby KRC is still resolving. The question is about a next referendum in which the Bima is again treated as a vampire for all purposes.

But if my first understanding was wrong and it cannot play the card, its ok, but I want to know why.

Thank you in advance.

lommez wrote:

RTR20070707: "An ally that plays a card "as a vampire" is treated "as a vampire" for all purposes of the resolution of the play of that card including any continuing effects, but not for effects the card generates for being in play."

All purposes seems complete enough to support cards played as a vampire during the action, respecting requirements.

Nope, it's "all purposes of the resolution of the play of that card". You resolved the card and called the referendum. That card sees you as a vampire for play, resolution, and lingering effect. Playing some other card is not the play, resolution or lingering effect of Charming Lobby.

Here's another situation (post-2007): [LSJ 20080930]

LSJ wrote:

>>> Can an ally such as Kherebutu play Soul Feasting? It's a hunt action
>>> so that's why I am wondering, will it allow Kherebutu to hunt?
>> Yes. Kherebutu can play it as a vampire, and so would hunt as a vampire would
>> with it.
>
> Would Sunset Strip Hollywood give an extra stealth to him then?

No. Sunset Strip doesn't see Kherebutu as a vampire.

So you play Soul Feasting "as a vampire" (Kherebutu's special), but you're not considered to be an actual vampire by anything else - like Sunset Strip trying to give you extra stealth.


One of the principal beneficiaries of this ruling was Mata Hari with Raking Talons. She plays it "as a Gargoyle", and the lingering effect making "this Gargoyle's hand strikes is aggravated" works for her.

lommez wrote:

Effect generated for being in play like Shadow of the Beast can be played but the maneuver cannot be used by a Bima with Protean Skill Card. But a Bima with Protean can Mantle of Bestial Majesty, untap, and rush a vampire to strike 2 strenght aggravated, a continuing effect, not a card in play. Correct?

As a lingering effect (rather than card in play), it would appear to be allowed under the 777 ruling, yes.

lommez wrote:

I undestand that a Bima with Auspex Skill can Nose of the Round a vampire and play Taste of Vitae, since the action is still resolving.

This is wrong. Bima does not turn into a vampire. Nose of the Hound treats Bima as a vampire for play, resolution, and lingering effect. Taste of Vitae can't be played. This is the same as the Kherebutu ruling above.

lommez wrote:

So a Bima with Presence can play AoI, since the Charming Lobby KRC is still resolving.

Incorrect.

lommez wrote:

The question is about a next referendum in which the Bima is again treated as a vampire for all purposes.

Incorrect - it's treated by that card as a vampire. The rest of the game sees the ally for what it is.

lommez wrote:

So a Bima with Presence can play AoI, since the Charming Lobby KRC is still resolving.

I think you got it wrong here. Bima with presence, as per card text, can only play PRESENCE CARDS as a vampire. AoI IS NOT a card requiring presence, and so, cannot be played.

RTR20070707 does not seem to extend that ability to other cards. It only separates "continuing effects" from "effects generated for being in play".

Zoroh wrote:

RTR20070707 does not seem to extend that ability to other cards. It only separates "continuing effects" from "effects generated for being in play".

That's pretty much what it does, yes. There were basically four things in the game where doing things "as a vampire" (or "as a Gargoyle", or "as a whatever") mattered:

1) Playing the card. Do you meet the requirements? Can you target something else? If it looks for an older or younger vampire, what capacity are you?

But if you give Bima Fortitude and it plays Restoration, you can't tap Creepshow Casino to get +1 stealth, because Bima is an ally.

2) Resolving the card. "The acting vampire gains 2 blood." (Restoration, inferior.) Okay, your pseudo-vampire with Fortitude gains 2 blood. You do a strike with a side effect to "this vampire", you take the side effect.

3) Lingering effects. As before, Mata Hari gets aggravated damage - provided to "this Gargoyle" - when she plays Raking Talons 'as a Gargoyle'. (All 'as a whatever' follow the same pattern.)

4) Effects granted to the vampire "with this card", or cards that go in play and grant an effect to "this vampire". e.g. playing Sight Beyond Sight on Mata Hari.


Prior to the 7-7-7 tweaking, 1 and 2 were allowed, 3 and 4 weren't. After the 7-7-7 tweaking, 1, 2 and 3 were allowed, but 4 still wasn't. At no point has this allowed other effects to treat you as something that you're not.