file Can a vampire use multiple "attempt to block" effects?

06 Dec 2017 18:03 - 06 Dec 2017 20:13 #84485 by kschaefer
I think a rulebook clean up is the best way to handle this. I appreciate the proposed options.

I think option 1 is better because it maintains the current state of the game. I agree with agzocgud's comments that it makes blocking simpler and easier to understand.

Here's my edit of version 1 to clear up potential issues (Ankha's changes in bold, mine in red):
Who May Attempt to Block: ... with the prey getting the first opportunity to block. Block attempts are made one at a time (if a minion is already attempting to block, additional block attempts made by the blocking same minion during that block attempt count as the same block continue the original attempt); if one attempt to block fails, another can be made as often as the blocking Methuselah wishes.

Replaced blocking with same because minion is not blocking, they are attempting to block. same adequately identifies the attempting minion.

Replaced during that block attempt count as the same block with continue the original. This is more clear that the original attempt has never ended, we are simply continuing it in the same way as if we added a simple intercept card.
Last edit: 06 Dec 2017 20:13 by kschaefer. Reason: Edited to add if-clause, which clarifies a fail and try-again case.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Beatrice

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
07 Dec 2017 09:33 - 07 Dec 2017 09:34 #84487 by Ankha

Replaced blocking with same because minion is not blocking, they are attempting to block. same adequately identifies the attempting minion.


"Blocking minion" and "minion attempting to block" are the same. Check the rulebook glossary: "Blocking Minion: The minion currently attempting to block an action, or the minion who has successfully blocked the current action."

There will always be room for doubt whatever terms are used, or whatever system is used to define block attempts. This may be an additional proof of it.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 07 Dec 2017 09:34 by Ankha.
The following user(s) said Thank You: kschaefer

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
07 Dec 2017 11:50 - 07 Dec 2017 11:52 #84488 by TwoRazorReign

Replaced blocking with same because minion is not blocking, they are attempting to block. same adequately identifies the attempting minion.


"Blocking minion" and "minion attempting to block" are the same. Check the rulebook glossary: "Blocking Minion: The minion currently attempting to block an action, or the minion who has successfully blocked the current action."

There will always be room for doubt whatever terms are used, or whatever system is used to define block attempts. This may be an additional proof of it.


Or perhaps this bit in the glossary perpetuates this confusion? Attempting to block and blocking are two distinct game mechanisms. The glossary fudges the line between the two mechanisms in its definition of "blocking minion." That definition, while probably helpful in determining certain card effects, is inconsistent with the game mechanism concepts outlined in the rulebook. Thus the confusion.

You've stated previously that you don't support use of the detailed play summary because of the problems it causes due to its inconsistencies with the rule book. If that's your modus operandi, why support that definition of "blocking minion" in the glossary?
Last edit: 07 Dec 2017 11:52 by TwoRazorReign.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
07 Dec 2017 13:30 #84492 by Boris The Blade

1/ Who May Attempt to Block: ... with the prey getting the first opportunity to block. Block attempts are made one at a time (additional block attempts made by the blocking minion during that block attempt count as the same block attempt); if one attempt to block fails, another can be made as often as the blocking Methuselah wishes.
2/ Who May Attempt to Block: ... with the prey getting the first opportunity to block. A Methuselah declares her block attempts one at a time (a minion can't declare a block attempt if there is already an ongoing block attempt); if one attempt to block fails, another can be declared as often as the blocking Methuselah wishes..

Independently of the current issue, I believe the paragraph is beyond patching at this point. It needs to be rewritten. Just one example:

If the action is not directed at another Methuselah (or at something controlled by another Methuselah), then the action is called undirected and can be blocked by the acting Methuselah's prey or predator, with the prey getting the first opportunity to block. If one attempt to block fails, another can be made as often as the blocking Methuselah wishes. Once a Methuselah decides not to make any further attempts to block, that decision is final. As a convenience, when a card describes an action that is typically directed at another Methuselah, the card's text will usually include a (D) symbol as a reminder that the action is typically directed.

(Emphasis mine.) The beginning is about directed/undirected, the end is about directed/undirected, but what is the bold section doing in the middle of that? The logical flow is broken.

First of all, I would change the title to "Block attempts". "Who may?" is only one of the questions that this paragraph must answer, and the reason we are having problems now is that the whole sequencing aspect was just an afterthought at the time of writing.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
07 Dec 2017 13:36 - 07 Dec 2017 13:37 #84493 by Ankha

Replaced blocking with same because minion is not blocking, they are attempting to block. same adequately identifies the attempting minion.


"Blocking minion" and "minion attempting to block" are the same. Check the rulebook glossary: "Blocking Minion: The minion currently attempting to block an action, or the minion who has successfully blocked the current action."

There will always be room for doubt whatever terms are used, or whatever system is used to define block attempts. This may be an additional proof of it.


Or perhaps this bit in the glossary perpetuates this confusion? Attempting to block and blocking are two distinct game mechanisms.

It's no more confusing that "attempt to block" vs. "declare a block attempt". And "attempting to block" and "blocking" are the same (or two different views of the same thing).

The glossary fudges the line between the two mechanisms in its definition of "blocking minion." That definition, while probably helpful in determining certain card effects, is inconsistent with the game mechanism concepts outlined in the rulebook.

No. The game mechanism concepts outlines in the rulebook heavily uses "blocking minion" as "mining attempting to block":
  • "If a block attempt is successful, then the blocking minion locks..."
  • "Intercept represents the blocking minion's efforts..."
  • "To see if a block attempt succeeds, compare the acting minion's stealth to the blocking minion's intercept."

You've stated previously that you don't support use of the detailed play summary because of the problems it causes due to its inconsistencies with the rule book. If that's your modus operandi, why support that definition of "blocking minion" in the glossary?

Because the glossary is part of the rulebook.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 07 Dec 2017 13:37 by Ankha.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
07 Dec 2017 13:39 #84494 by Ankha

Independently of the current issue, I believe the paragraph is beyond patching at this point. It needs to be rewritten.

This is a two-step process. First, patch the existing rulebook. Then, provide a new rulebook (which is an ongoing task).

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

More
Moderators: AnkhaKraus
Time to create page: 0.145 seconds
Powered by Kunena Forum