Coming back to the game

Thank you all so much for your responses. I've been messaging the guys and they've come around

We were all Vampire role-players when Jyhad was first released and a lot of the cards we play with are from the first printing. I think a big part of the reason we put the limit in place was not only as a hangover from M:TG, but because of the free easy ability of a couple of players to constantly wake, block and strike:combat ends pretty freely making it difficult to tackle them.

Of course, with being able to print cards, tackling this anyways wouldn't be a problem. But having a card limit in place does limit deck builds.

A large part of their reluctance is because this was simply how we played over the years when we did manage to get together, and why change it, but with the possibility of printing cards that changes things a lot.

In terms of power gaming, I suppose I would look at a card like Ahrimane's Demesne or Entombment (just some of the great cards I was unaware of) - I mean, rushing ready vampire's with cards like that is scary - but, they are both 'balanced' I suppose by the high blood cost - itself difficult when getting in to combat - and one requires both long range and a second round of combat

But even those kind of cards aside, some of the guys weren't sure about having 14 Kine Resources contested in a single deck (as was in one of the tournament lists)

I suppose we'll start playing with deck builds and try it out on our next meet. I think just being able to build some lists that we've always wanted to build will be fun enough to convince them finally (I'll steer clear of sticking 10 Ahrimane's Demesne's in my deck just to not be a that guy!)

Thanks all again

desmondkenny wrote:

In terms of power gaming, I suppose I would look at a card like Ahrimane's Demesne or Entombment (just some of the great cards I was unaware of) - I mean, rushing ready vampire's with cards like that is scary - but, they are both 'balanced' I suppose by the high blood cost - itself difficult when getting in to combat - and one requires both long range and a second round of combat

Second round combat effects are unreliable at best, but Entombments good. The expense, the fact that you're still taking damage from the opponent's hit, that fact that it's dodgeable, foiled by S:CE, etc. It's not weak, but it doesn't always hit its mark either.

desmondkenny wrote:

But even those kind of cards aside, some of the guys weren't sure about having 14 Kine Resources contested in a single deck (as was in one of the tournament lists)

Sure, but decks like that can be foiled by Delaying Tactics, which prevents any vampire controlled by the Methuselah from calling the same vote this turn on top of canceling the current referendum. It's an extremely common vote defense mechanism. So, all KRCs is often a weakness. But each vote has the chance to be blocked, how much stealth did the deck have? If it had a lot, how did it pass votes? With push With titles?

I say these things to provoke your analysis because every tournament winning deck is weak against something. The deck excelled on that day in that metagame. In your group, it may not fair as well. When looking at the TWD and seeing how decks are constructed, you'll discover that there's no one right answer for any deck type. A lot of playing depends on your style and the decks around you.

In terms of power gaming, I suppose I would look at a card like Ahrimane's Demesne or Entombment (just some of the great cards I was unaware of) - I mean, rushing ready vampire's with cards like that is scary - but, they are both 'balanced' I suppose by the high blood cost - itself difficult when getting in to combat - and one requires both long range and a second round of combat

If you want to look at power gaming, do not start with combat. It is the least efficient part of the game because it does not directly affect your prey's pool. The power gaming discipline of the game is Dominate with Govern the Unaligned, Conditioning and Deflection.

Non-existant user wrote:

In terms of power gaming, I suppose I would look at a card like Ahrimane's Demesne or Entombment (just some of the great cards I was unaware of) - I mean, rushing ready vampire's with cards like that is scary - but, they are both 'balanced' I suppose by the high blood cost - itself difficult when getting in to combat - and one requires both long range and a second round of combat

If you want to look at power gaming, do not start with combat. It is the least efficient part of the game because it does not directly affect your prey's pool. The power gaming discipline of the game is Dominate with Govern the Unaligned, Conditioning and Deflection.

All of the most efficient cards fall in here. Deflection is the most efficient way to redirect a bleed. Conditioning is the most efficient bleed pump. Govern is the most efficient card that either bleeds or moves pool to uncontrolled minions as you choose (so its pool or acceleration).

Something I noticed after KoT was out awhile (so possibly after HttB) was the more cards that served multiple functions, such as Eyes of Argus/Sense the Savage Way, or Deep Song, or Govern, the better the deck flowed and the more reliably it played.
It seems obvious to nearly all players that this is a thing, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be stated.
Also, voting with is strictly better than without, because Voter Captivation is too effective at refilling minions and gaining pool to not mention it, and Awe let's you put enough votes behind almost anything that isn't getting DTd if you're already running titled vamps.

desmondkenny wrote:

I think a big part of the reason we put the limit in place was not only as a hangover from M:TG, but because of the free easy ability of a couple of players to constantly wake, block and strike:combat ends pretty freely making it difficult to tackle them.

Just need more stealth in the opposing deck.
Or a way to take care of strike: combat end (S:CE), like Immortal Grapple or Psyche! etc.

desmondkenny wrote:

But even those kind of cards aside, some of the guys weren't sure about having 14 Kine Resources contested in a single deck (as was in one of the tournament lists)

14 ain't even all THAT many.

Such focused decks can be MURDER and often the focused ones are.
Try it and you'll see that especially in a feebly toolboxy "I'm all over the place and not focused at all" deck environment. Doesn't need to be that 14 KRCs deck, 20 copies of Kindred Spirits or 20 copies of Govern the Unaligned (or whatever) would be a solid choice too.

Even the deck you mentioned about (constant waking, blocking and combat ending) sounds pretty much like a rather focused a deck. Not necessarily a very good one as the mechanism you told just (tries to) keeps it in the game but is there anything to go forward with and oust preys? Casual games with such decks can drag on and on for hours and the winner of such game isn't necessarily a good game. Once you get the hang of the game rules, try to play even the casual games with the 2 hour time limit used for tournaments (used for a very good reason).

LivesByProxy wrote:

Lonkka wrote:

Just forget card limits.

Doesn't even offer pros or cons or reasons why. I imagine if he did it would be "because that's the way it has been for 25 years" (which is apparently called the 'appeal to tradition' fallacy - suitable for an immortal, no?)

*facepalm*

Some of us might not have time in hand to devote to forum presence...

Luckily we have you with your unlimited hands on experience in the game to type the forum full of lengthy responses!