question-circle Coming back to the game

28 Sep 2018 07:59 - 28 Sep 2018 08:02 #90814 by Bloodartist
Replied by Bloodartist on topic Coming back to the game

But my prediction is that once you remove the card limit, you'll find entire swaths of cards being completely abandoned (becoming wall-paper) for cards that are strictly better or more general use. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it brings me to the point I was making earlier:


I think you got this entirely backwards. No card limit actually allows more cards to be used than implementing a card limit.

Think of very common cards that have basically no monetary value on their own: cards like torn signpost, conditioning, blood doll etc. If a card limit X was implemented, you could only put up to X cards into your deck. This would mean that every other such card you own would be useless. In a TCG-model with randomized boosters, this would mean that when you open booster you would have very high chance of opening garbage that has no use and no monetary value. In VTES, those cards can still find use since they can be used in large numbers in some decks.

Back when I was still opening boosters, opening a VTES booster was much more interesting than opening a magic booster because I was much much more likely to find something actually usable. (In magic I gave up buying booster products a long time ago since its waste of money in every sense of the word. I only buy singleton cards from secondhand sellers).

In a Living Card Game-model (fixed contents), you only buy bundles that you need, ensuring you most likely won't end up with useless card you have no use for. On the other hand, having a no card limit along with LCG-style boosters is a great boon for the manufacturer since it instills a need to buy more bundles than you would with a card limit if you want to build certain decks. If there was a limit, you would only buy the minimum amount of bundles necessary to get that card limit X amount.

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



Last edit: 28 Sep 2018 08:02 by Bloodartist.

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28 Sep 2018 10:42 - 28 Sep 2018 10:42 #90816 by Kraus
Replied by Kraus on topic Coming back to the game
I will say this once only.

Everyone, make sure this topic will have neither presumptious argumentative accusations, nor lashing towards a person instead of post contents from here on.

"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise

garourimgazette.wordpress.com/
www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines
Last edit: 28 Sep 2018 10:42 by Kraus.

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28 Sep 2018 11:49 #90817 by angrynewb
Replied by angrynewb on topic Coming back to the game
Hi Des,

thats great that you and your group of friends are enjoying the game again. Its definitely a very good time to return, since Black Chantry Productions has the game back in print !


I wanted to share some thoughts, because your concerns reminded me of my own "struggle" moving from 4 card limit to no card limit.

When we started playing competitively back in 1995 the organizers in Austria decided to go with a 4 card limit. Since there was no repeat action ruling at that time, players could use cards to tap all your vampires and then go bleed you 5 times with 1 vampire. This was kinda "broken" and thus the card limit was used. (Ventrue bleed was still crazy powerful with 4x misdirection, 4x majesty and 4x freak drive though)

But then the first European Championship came along, and since it was the first big international event, we had to get rid of our local 4 card limit rule.
I remember i wasnt happy about it. You are getting thrown off your comfort zone, all the experience you accumulated with deckbuilding and the meta felt kinda lost.

There are still playgroups out there that use a 4 card limit house rule, or some players making 4 card limit decks and take them to tournaments, even with good success.

My advice would be:
First and foremost you should have fun playing, and if that takes away your friends fun, you probably shouldnt force the no card limit rule onto them. (logical reasoning usually wont help much if you they feel bad about it). Maybe you can agree that some of you play with their beloved 4 card limit and some try to experiment with no card limit.
For example i hold on to the 4 card limit a long time, with just a few exceptions like playing 6 copies of certain cards to stay competitive enough.


best wishes, and keep bleeding ;-)

Martin Weinmayer

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28 Sep 2018 12:47 - 28 Sep 2018 13:01 #90818 by TwoRazorReign

I should clarify I'm not against VTES having no card-copy limit. I actually think it is a testament to the game's core mechanics / structure that it can have no card-copy limits AND the instant draw-replace cycling rule, and still not be 'broken' (the closest thing might be the Una Freak Drive combo?)


Una/Freak Drive is a combo deck. Like all combo decks in VTES, there's a greater chance of the deck spinning its wheels and flaming out than actually working. I would not consider it even close to broken.

I would say experiment with card limits. Do 5-ofs, 6-ofs, 7-ofs, etc. But my prediction is that once you remove the card limit, you'll find entire swaths of cards being completely abandoned (becoming wall-paper) for cards that are strictly better or more general use. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but it brings me to the point I was making earlier:

Why do people argue against implementing a card-copy limit but won't advocate removing the grouping rule?


It boils down to this: library cards were deliberately designed without a card limit in mind to keep the design space for library cards wide open. The grouping rule was deliberately introduced later to expand the design space for crypt cards. I don't think I need to explain that library cards and crypt cards function very differently, and that's why no restrictions on library cards but restrictions on crypt cards achieves the same purpose: expanded design space.

Because of no restrictions on library cards, one can have a deck with 12 cards that limit hand strikes. Because of the grouping rule, including both Arika and Keith Moody in every deck ever is impossible.

One may question why only one card limiting hand strikes exists in Potence where obfuscate has many + stealth cards. The answer is because Immortal Grapple does not say "Opposing minion can't dodge and Strike: Combat Ends." It has a paragraph of text that is very confusing to a player unless that player knows how the card works. It's best to have just one card of this type, so when the player sees the pretty picture of 2 vampires fighting each other, they know "Hey, I can counter Strike: Combat Ends with this. Let me add 12 of them." Compare that with cards that say simply "+1 stealth," and that's why so many types of stealth cards exist in obfuscate.

Just forget card limits.


Doesn't even offer pros or cons or reasons why. I imagine if he did it would be "because that's the way it has been for 25 years" (which is apparently called the 'appeal to tradition' fallacy - suitable for an immortal, no?)


I have heard this constantly, from many different people on this forum, that saying "VTES has been this way for 25 years" is a fallacious argument against changing something in the game. No, it is not. If VTES was being overhauled into something not resembling the Jyhad set released in 1994, okay, this is a fallacious argument. The fact is, the game is pretty much the same game it was in 1994, and there is no indication this is changing anytime soon. The reason why is precisely because the game has functioned just fine for 25 years while essentially building upon that first set released in 1994, which was desingned with no card limits for library cards and a tiny by comparison crypt selection (hence why the grouping rule was instituted later as crypt options expanded).
Last edit: 28 Sep 2018 13:01 by TwoRazorReign.
The following user(s) said Thank You: drnlmza

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28 Sep 2018 12:52 - 28 Sep 2018 12:53 #90819 by ReverendRevolver

Hi Des,

thats great that you and your group of friends are enjoying the game again. Its definitely a very good time to return, since Black Chantry Productions has the game back in print !


I wanted to share some thoughts, because your concerns reminded me of my own "struggle" moving from 4 card limit to no card limit.

When we started playing competitively back in 1995 the organizers in Austria decided to go with a 4 card limit. Since there was no repeat action ruling at that time, players could use cards to tap all your vampires and then go bleed you 5 times with 1 vampire. This was kinda "broken" and thus the card limit was used. (Ventrue bleed was still crazy powerful with 4x misdirection, 4x majesty and 4x freak drive though)

But then the first European Championship came along, and since it was the first big international event, we had to get rid of our local 4 card limit rule.
I remember i wasnt happy about it. You are getting thrown off your comfort zone, all the experience you accumulated with deckbuilding and the meta felt kinda lost.

There are still playgroups out there that use a 4 card limit house rule, or some players making 4 card limit decks and take them to tournaments, even with good success.

My advice would be:
First and foremost you should have fun playing, and if that takes away your friends fun, you probably shouldnt force the no card limit rule onto them. (logical reasoning usually wont help much if you they feel bad about it). Maybe you can agree that some of you play with their beloved 4 card limit and some try to experiment with no card limit.
For example i hold on to the 4 card limit a long time, with just a few exceptions like playing 6 copies of certain cards to stay competitive enough.


best wishes, and keep bleeding ;-)

Martin Weinmayer


Fun should be the point.

I would say reasonably that an 8 card limit for several decks, if the OPs playgroup backsteps on the issue, isn't nearly as terrible.

Akunanse No Secrets, Many !Ventrue builds that use 8caps as 1/4 of the deck, Toolboxy tremere, and many more.

Of course, substantially more decks become strong at 10 copies of Govern, but if they insist on a card limit, 8 is less crippling than 4.
Last edit: 28 Sep 2018 12:53 by ReverendRevolver.

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29 Sep 2018 05:23 #90828 by Bloodartist
Replied by Bloodartist on topic Coming back to the game

I have heard this constantly, from many different people on this forum, that saying "VTES has been this way for 25 years" is a fallacious argument against changing something in the game. No, it is not.


www.logicalfallacies.info/relevance/appeals/appeal-to-tradition/

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



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