Vampires entering play: triggered effects and contesting

Bloodartist wrote:

jamesatzephyr wrote:

It's not, no. That's why it doesn't go off in the "as played" / "enters play" window.

Enters play window is not defined in the rulebook, it doesnt exist.

The Golden Rule for Cards means that cards can do things that are inconsistent with the rulebook. It therefore does exist.

If you think that cards can only do things that are defined in the rulebook, you are playing the wrong game.

TwoRazorReign wrote:

Even worse, the Detailed Play Summary indicates they are “moved” to the ready region. Should the reader of the rules assume “placed” and “moved” are synonymous with “played”? If not, then why are the rules deliberately using other words besides “played” here, if in fact crypt cards are being played from the uncontrolled region?

It's fairly irrelevant. The point Ankha is making is that the "enters play" effect of crypt cards are handled using the same principle as the "as played" type effects of library cards that go into play - and both are kept distinct from general effects that happen when the card is "in play" after it has gone into play without being contested.

The "enters play" effect of Anarch Convert, for example, could optionally be triggered when it enters play via some other effect - because that is entering play. For example, you can use an Anarch Convert if it enters play via Chain of Command (which says "put... in play") or Illusions of the Kindred (a "move" effect), because both cards cause Anarch Convert to enter play. [LSJ 20091125]

LSJ wrote:

> #1. Just doublechecking (because card text seems to allow it), but if
> an Anarch Convert enters play via Illusions of the Kindred or Chain of
> Command, I assume that I can remove it from the game (make someone an
> anarch and gain a pool or a crypt card), right?

Yes.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

Bloodartist wrote:

jamesatzephyr wrote:

It's not, no. That's why it doesn't go off in the "as played" / "enters play" window.

Enters play window is not defined in the rulebook, it doesnt exist.

The Golden Rule for Cards means that cards can do things that are inconsistent with the rulebook. It therefore does exist.

If you think that cards can only do things that are defined in the rulebook, you are playing the wrong game.

With all due respect, I think you're missing the point of this entire thread. That crypt cards "enter play" when they are flipped during the influence phase is really not the problem. It's that the rules do not expressly state that cards "enter play" and instead use mealy mouthed expressions such as "move" or "place". It misleads the reader, and they are left to either assume correctly that cards enter play or assume incorrectly that cards do not enter play at that specific point in the influence phase. This is one example of the rulebook leaving a huge opportunity for people to fill in their own "rules," as can be seen in some of the responses in this thread. And that the Detailed Play Summary does the same thing is inexcusable, because that is the document that is supposed to clearly define timing windows.

If crypt cards "enter play" at the end of the influence phase, then the rulebook should explicitly state this. 90% of the problems people are having would disappear.

My next question would be if there is a reason why "move" and "place" are used in the rules and and if "enters play" was deliberately left out, but I was told this is all "fairly irrelevant," so I guess that's one answer.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

If you think that cards can only do things that are defined in the rulebook, you are playing the wrong game.

Wow. Just wow. Add this to your "irrelevant" comment and I can see why you're the perfect advocate for this game.

There is a saying among board-game design hobbyists and enthusiasts:

"If it isn't in the rules, it isn't in the game."

Fortunately, stuff like The Golden Rule covers a lot of ground. Unfortunately, The Golden Rule just means when a card contradicts the rules, the card takes precedence.

If a card is referencing steps or phases or terms or values not expressed or defined in the rules, how can it contradict them?

TwoRazorReign wrote:

With all due respect, I think you're missing the point of this entire thread.

With all due respect, I think you are missing the point of V:TES.

TwoRazorReign wrote:

That crypt cards "enter play" when they are flipped during the influence phase is really not the problem. It's that the rules do not expressly state that cards "enter play" and instead use mealy mouthed expressions such as "move" or "place".

V:TES's rulebook does not - and never will - explain what happens for every single card play in the entire game. This is why you are missing the point.

V:TES's cards can literally create effects that are not in the rulebook at all. More than a few cards create timing windows that are not codified in the rulebook. Some of the commoner created timing windows have since been codified in the rulebook, but many have not.

V:TES's cards will often use ordinary English words and expect you to understand their meaning. When something goes from not being in play to being in play, it enters play - that is what those words mean. It does not matter if it is moved or put or placed or flipped or transferred - it can enter play (potentially) in any of those ways.

What happens if a card does something that isn't in the rulebook? The Golden Rule for Cards applies. What happens if people disagree about the right way to use the effect of a card? The official rules authorities (over time) provide clarifications, rulings, and errata.

Why does this matter? Because if you say that things that are on cards, but aren't mentioned in the rulebook, don't exist, they are fundamentally misunderstanding how V:TES works. Cards are not restricted by the rulebook.

TwoRazorReign wrote:

If crypt cards "enter play" at the end of the influence phase, then the rulebook should explicitly state this. 90% of the problems people are having would disappear.

But that would be wrong, because crypt cards enter play whenever they enter play.

TwoRazorReign wrote:

My next question would be if there is a reason why "move" and "place" are used in the rules and and if "enters play" was deliberately left out, but I was told this is all "fairly irrelevant," so I guess that's one answer.

That you're trying to interpret "enters play" to mean "only when it enters play in one specific way at one specific time, despite card text providing literally no support for your belief" may provide some guidance for why you are missing the point.