Undead Persistence and Psyche!

Wondering how Psyche! superior interacts with Undead Persistence inferior...

Undead Persistence
Combat
Fortitude

[for] Only usable when this vampire should go into torpor. This vampire gets an optional press and will not go to torpor until combat ends (although he or she is still considered wounded and can be burned as normal). If three rounds of combat pass with no cards played, combat ends. This vampire is sent into torpor after combat.


Psyche!
Combat
Celerity

[cel] Press.
[CEL] Only usable at the end of a round when both combatants are still ready and combat is about to end. After this round, begin another combat with the opposing minion.

Ankha wrote:

Could you please detail the scenario?

Vampire is in combat. Plays undead persistence. Combat would be about to end, someone plays psyche. Does the vampire go to torpor immediately, or after the second combat caused by the psyche?

Apparently according to LSJ, the "go to torpor after combat" condition carries over to the next combat queued by psyche ([LSJ 20030214]), ie. psyche "trumps" the effect of undead persistence. But this makes no sense to me nor others. Psyche lets the combat end, combat ends, why doesn't vampire who used undead persistence go to torpor?

Someone pointed out that psyche has had several revisions to its wording since the LSJ ruling, so maybe this should be looked at again by the rules committee?

Thanks.
I'm with Bloodartist on this one.

Intuitively it feels that when the initial combat ends the vampire using UP should go to torpor as per UP wording ("This vampire is sent into torpor after combat."), Not after "all combats" have ended.

Psyche! says "After this round, begin another combat with the opposing minion.". So round ends and before the new combat queued by Psyche! starts UP's wording ("This vampire is sent into torpor after combat.") should kick in.


If the combatants move on to a new combat (as per Psyche!) why doesn't the UP function like all the other cards do (once per combat effects etcsuch as the inbuilt maneuvers on guns are reset, bonuses and efects for the duration of the combat are lost such as Torn Signpost and Carrion Crows etc)?

So it would seem more logical if Psyche! carries combatants to another combat without torporizing the vampire using UP then like all effect that lasted through the initial combat (like going to torpor and preventing to going to torpor) are lost too.

Perhaps the time is ripe for these rules issues to be looked at again?

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I take the "3 rounds" effect is there to prevent abuse but come to think of it
without combat cards it is pretty hard to get multiple presses (minus Meat Hook providing endless press if not countered by a Dodge). Trap also works for three rounds but after that you need to reset it with a combat card.

Probably worded like it was to go in tandem with Trap. But Trap already has the same time limit so why not just have UP work for the duration of the combat? (Well, of course Meat Hook but Trap and UP were released in Jyhad and Meat Hook was introduced years later in Final Nights so MH can't have been the reason but perhaps they anticipated that kinda of thing and didn't want to make UP too powerful?)

Bloodartist wrote:

Ankha wrote:

Could you please detail the scenario?

Vampire is in combat. Plays undead persistence. Combat would be about to end, someone plays psyche. Does the vampire go to torpor immediately, or after the second combat caused by the psyche?

Apparently according to LSJ, the "go to torpor after combat" condition carries over to the next combat queued by psyche ([LSJ 20030214]), ie. psyche "trumps" the effect of undead persistence. But this makes no sense to me nor others. Psyche lets the combat end, combat ends, why doesn't vampire who used undead persistence go to torpor?

Someone pointed out that psyche has had several revisions to its wording since the LSJ ruling, so maybe this should be looked at again by the rules committee?

I agree with you 100%. This ruling is against wording of the cards.
If psyche was changed multiple times the ruling should also be also updated.

With current ruling it seems you can have combat inside of the combat before the first one ends. The question is why ? and what for. But if this is the case why other cards like carrion crows work differently and doesn't stay in psyche combat