file Self-contesting unique cards that are out of play // Temptation during action

19 Nov 2019 10:21 - 19 Nov 2019 10:22 #97893 by Kraus
Two questions that came up in the Finnish Nationals:

1) If unique masters I control leave play because of other players’ contests, does the game state recognize me owning that unique master (I am denied from playing another), or not (I may play another, the last card entering play getting burned)?
2) Can Temptation be used mid action?

Explanations:

1.1.
Player B has Fame played on A’s vampire. That vampire is contested by C – Fame leaves play, as cards on contested vampires/cards do. May B play another Fame on another one of A’s vampires?

Contested cards are ‘out of play’, but still interact with the game state (contesting costs may be paid). When cards are factually Out of play, there is no way to interact with them, and game state doesn’t recognize them. We decided B could play another Fame, and if C would yield contest, the most recent copy of B’s Fames would burn as it enters play (the original in this case).

Was this correct?

2.1.
Temptation may be used in a player’s Minion phase. May it be used mid action, for any of the following effects (as examples)? A is always the one controlling Temptation, and Temptation counters are assumed to always match the blood count on the minion.

a) On A’s turn, they take an action. Minion with Temptation attempts to block. Temptation may be triggered to end the block attempt, and the action continues. Correct?

b) On A’s turn, B’s minion takes a Bleed action (Enkil Cog, Madness Network…). The action is blocked, and during any moment in the combat A may use Temptation to end the action and combat. The minion may not attempt a Bleed action anymore, since the Bleed action reached resolution (blocked). Correct?

c) On A’s Turn, B’s minion takes a Bleed action (Enkil Cog, Madness Network…). A declines blocks, B plays Conditioning. Before resolving successfully Temptation is triggered, ending the action. The Bleed action did not reach resolution (successful or blocked), and A may Bleed with that minion during their turn. Correct?

Name: Temptation
[AH:R2, FN:PS, KMW:PB, LotN:PS3]
Cardtype: Action
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Serpentis
[ser] (D) Put this card on a ready vampire; you still control this card. During your master phase, you may put a counter on this card. During your minion phase, if the number of counters on this card equals or exceeds the amount of blood on this vampire, you may burn the counters to unlock this vampire and take control of him or her until the end of the turn.
[SER] As above, and add a counter when you play this card.
Artist: Mark Tedin; Brad Williams


"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise

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Last edit: 19 Nov 2019 10:22 by Kraus.

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19 Nov 2019 12:00 - 19 Nov 2019 12:03 #97898 by Bloodartist

Two questions that came up in the Finnish Nationals:

1) If unique masters I control leave play because of other players’ contests, does the game state recognize me owning that unique master (I am denied from playing another), or not (I may play another, the last card entering play getting burned)?
2) Can Temptation be used mid action?

Explanations:

1.1.
Player B has Fame played on A’s vampire. That vampire is contested by C – Fame leaves play, as cards on contested vampires/cards do. May B play another Fame on another one of A’s vampires?

Contested cards are ‘out of play’, but still interact with the game state (contesting costs may be paid). When cards are factually Out of play, there is no way to interact with them, and game state doesn’t recognize them. We decided B could play another Fame, and if C would yield contest, the most recent copy of B’s Fames would burn as it enters play (the original in this case).

Was this correct?


So two fames are in contest, one is yielded but another remains out of play for the round, and you ask what happens if a third fame is played?

Here is excerpt from the rulebook:

For the duration of the contest, all of the contested cards are turned face down and are out of play. If another unique card with the same name is brought into play, it is immediately contested and turned face down as well.

A rules question is actually answered by the rulebook! OMG! So the answer is no. The out of play contested cards still count as being in play for the purposes of contest.
ps. Don't attempt to use logic to determine VTES rules, it will end badly. (I do it myself)

a) On A’s turn, they take an action. Minion with Temptation attempts to block. Temptation may be triggered to end the block attempt, and the action continues. Correct?

Since there are cards that can be played when a minion is attempting to block to deny that block, I don't see why temptation could not be activated to deny block in the same way.

b) On A’s turn, B’s minion takes a Bleed action (Enkil Cog, Madness Network…). The action is blocked, and during any moment in the combat A may use Temptation to end the action and combat. The minion may not attempt a Bleed action anymore, since the Bleed action reached resolution (blocked). Correct?

I believe you are correct. Action reached resolution if it was successfully blocked. Combat doesn't need to happen, since there are cards like obedience/mental maze etc where a block happens but combat doesn't, in which case action counts as resolved.

c) On A’s Turn, B’s minion takes a Bleed action (Enkil Cog, Madness Network…). A declines blocks, B plays Conditioning. Before resolving successfully Temptation is triggered, ending the action. The Bleed action did not reach resolution (successful or blocked), and A may Bleed with that minion during their turn. Correct?

Of this I am quite certain that the answer is yes. Stolen minion can bleed during A's turn.

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



Last edit: 19 Nov 2019 12:03 by Bloodartist.

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19 Nov 2019 12:14 #97900 by Kilrauko

Two questions that came up in the Finnish Nationals:

1) If unique masters I control leave play because of other players’ contests, does the game state recognize me owning that unique master (I am denied from playing another), or not (I may play another, the last card entering play getting burned)?
2) Can Temptation be used mid action?

Explanations:

1.1.
Player B has Fame played on A’s vampire. That vampire is contested by C – Fame leaves play, as cards on contested vampires/cards do. May B play another Fame on another one of A’s vampires?

Contested cards are ‘out of play’, but still interact with the game state (contesting costs may be paid). When cards are factually Out of play, there is no way to interact with them, and game state doesn’t recognize them. We decided B could play another Fame, and if C would yield contest, the most recent copy of B’s Fames would burn as it enters play (the original in this case).

Was this correct?


I'm old and rusty but seem to recall that information of the cards name (only thing that mattered) was shared in out of play as it's contents are public knowledge[ groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/q_hw-FEVULY/G5mpj_72uyMJ ]. That's also what the contesting rules rely upon as they target names of the cards instead their effects or properties. This post from 2009 made by LSJ with it's second answer seems to confirm it was still the case back then, with clarification on answer three. I don't know if there has been some changes made since.

groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/cn-u3mzyVcE/kqlVPXX2i3EJ

tigernat1 wrote:
> I have an ivory bow on vamp 1 and am contesting it with my prey who
> has it on vamp 2. I now influence out vamp 2 to contest his vamp
> 2...is the ivory bow still contested?

Yes.

Unique cards on contested cards are out of the game except with respect to being
contested. They are contested as normal, should the need arise. [RTR 19951017]

www.white-wolf.com/vtes/?line=rulings

> Alternatively, I contest vamp 2 FIRST, then have vamp 1 equip the
> ivory bow. Is the bow contested, or doesn't become contested til my
> prey's vamp 2 returns to play?

Contested.

> The rulebook does not say what to do with cards ON contested cards. I
> assume they are out of play as well?

Yes. Except with respect to being contested. (i.e., they're handled like the
cards they're on).


Back in the day one could not play cards that would self-contest, again I do not know if there is later revisions to this. LSJ talks about card you control that I'm assuming is referring to permanent control mechanism where only out of play only breaks temporary controls;
groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/NlZlnCamK_E/RtjpBdcL-FcJ

So we're clear:
You cannot play the second copy of a unqiue card you control.
If you are forced by the rules or by card text to put a second copy
into play (e.g., move a full vampire from your uncontrolled region
at the end of your influence phase), then the incoming copy is
burned.


So based on those two, the Fame is not contested at first and is out of play, it however shares it's name regarding contests even when out of play. Player cannot play cards that would self contest, therefore they cannot play the second Fame to cycle their hand. If another player plays Fame, the Fame on contested vampire starts contesting despite being "out of play".

Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.

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19 Nov 2019 12:27 #97904 by Bloodartist

Back in the day one could not play cards that would self-contest, again I do not know if there is later revisions to this.


Self-contesting rules haven't changed. You still can't do it. But it was kinda beside the point of the main issue here so I didn't mention it.

A heretic is a man who sees with his own eyes.
—Gotthold Ephraim Lessing



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19 Nov 2019 12:31 #97905 by Kilrauko

Self-contesting rules haven't changed. You still can't do it. But it was kinda beside the point of the main issue here so I didn't mention it.


It is not, the example Kraus lays out has the following;

Player B has Fame played on A’s vampire. That vampire is contested by C – Fame leaves play, as cards on contested vampires/cards do. May B play another Fame on another one of A’s vampires?


The Vampire is contested at the start, not the Fame on that vampire. The question is whether or not a player can avoid the self-contesting limit due to the Fame being out of play as the vampire it is on is out of play due to contest.

Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.

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19 Nov 2019 12:32 #97906 by Kraus

So two fames are in contest, one is yielded but another remains out of play for the round, and you ask what happens if a third fame is played?

No. Two vampires are contested, one copy with a Fame attached.

"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
-Nalia De-Arnise

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