file First Tradition: the Masquerade goes first?

10 Jan 2021 10:39 #101406 by lip
Boris is right.

The whole point here is the phrasing indicating this decision happens at unlock phase, which implies your unlock phase started and will end if you don't pay 2 pool.


I do not think this is right. In my opinion the wording was changed to make it clear that the decision to take a turn or not does not happen at the same time than paying the blood. I think it was done to take into account historic rulings on the card that allowed you to use Vessel before paying for the First Tradition, if you decided to take the turn.
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10 Jan 2021 14:06 - 10 Jan 2021 14:07 #101407 by Timo

lip wrote: Boris is right.

The whole point here is the phrasing indicating this decision happens at unlock phase, which implies your unlock phase started and will end if you don't pay 2 pool.


I do not think this is right. In my opinion the wording was changed to make it clear that the decision to take a turn or not does not happen at the same time than paying the blood. I think it was done to take into account historic rulings on the card that allowed you to use Vessel before paying for the First Tradition, if you decided to take the turn.


IIRC old version of 1st tradition asked you to pay in order to have a turn so it was an effect which happened even before the actual turn.

But the important part here is the current version of it and it has been correctly stated that you chose to take a turn or not before begining your turn and if you take your turn, you will have to pay 2 at any time during your unlock ordering your phase with the current sequencing rules in any order you want like you would do for an anarch revolt or a fame in torpor.
Last edit: 10 Jan 2021 14:07 by Timo.

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10 Jan 2021 14:08 #101408 by thiagotargino
Thank you guys, now it is clear!

:malk: :AUS: :OBF: :PRE: :dai: :dem: :obe: :cap9: :anarch: Flip a coin. Thank you.

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10 Jan 2021 19:02 - 11 Jan 2021 13:29 #101412 by inm8
*** The below was miss interpreted and the card penalty hasn’t changed...for references see my last post in this topic. ***

As per the current text, the words "in cumulative penalties" are not there anymore since they were dropped with the Keepers of Tradition change of wording, one now must skip 3 turns or burn 6 pool.. . which means that the penalty isn´t paid by for ex. burning 4 pool and skipping 1 turn....in turn this means that if one has already for ex burnt 4 pool but is no longer in a position where 2 more pool can be burned one is force to start from scratch with skipping the 3 required turns, it also enables the controller to keep the card around for 5 full table turns making this card more powerful.

Current card text says:
Name: First Tradition: The Masquerade
AKA: The First Tradition: The Masquerade
[Jyhad:R2, VTES:R, CE:R, KoT:R]
Cardtype: Political Action
Requires a prince or justicar.
If this referendum is successful, put this card in play. Each Methuselah must burn 2 pool during his or her unlock phase. A Methuselah can choose to skip his or her entire turn. Burn this card when the controller has either skipped 3 turns or burned a total of 6 pool by this effect.
Artist: Pete Venters; Mike Danza


KoT


CE
Last edit: 11 Jan 2021 13:29 by inm8.

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10 Jan 2021 21:08 #101413 by Ankha

thiagotargino wrote:

lip wrote: No. If you don't get a turn, you don't get an unlock phase, since you don't have a turn ☺︎


The card text changed since Keepers of Tradition: "Each Methuselah must burn 2 pool during his or her unlock phase."

Correct.

lip wrote: No. If you don't get a turn, you don't get an unlock phase, since you don't have a turn ☺︎

So, first you chose if you take a turn or not. The decision to skip your turn or not happens before the unlock phase.

If you do take a turn, then first you unlock - this is not an effect you can order, it happens before any other effects during the unlock phase.

Once you have unlocked, you resolve any effect that happen during the unlock phase. Mandatory effects must be resolved before you pass the impulse. Paying for the Tradition is such a mandatory effect. You can get blood from your Vessel before resolving it.

Correct.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
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11 Jan 2021 09:21 #101415 by Timo

inm8 wrote: it also enables the controller to keep the card around for 5 full table turns


It has always been the case.
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