file Bleeds

21 May 2021 04:55 #102275 by Raven
Bleeds was created by Raven
Hello,

i have  2 questions about bleed actions

1) if A is bleeding B, and B has played reaction to reduce this bleed, can A play action modifier to increase it after that? And if yes, can B try to bounce this bleed after A played action modifier that increase bleed?

2) According to rulebook in Bleed section

"If the action succeeds, the target Methuselah burns an amount of pool equal to the bleed amount. By default, all vampires have a bleed amount of 1. If the action succeeds and the bleed amount is 1 or more, then the bleed is successful and the controller of the acting minion gets the Edge, taking it from the Methuselah who has it, if any."

If bleed form Flurry of Action is unblocked but reduced to 0 following are thruth:

- I can play Freak Drive on inferior to unlock because action is successful?

Freak Drive
Action modifier
Only usable after action resolution.[f] Only usable if the action was successful. Unlock this vampire.[F] Only usable if the action was blocked. Unlock this vampire.


- I cannot trigger Flurry of Action because despite of that action is successfull, bleed  reduced to 0 isn't?
Flurry of Action
Action modifier[c] Ⓓ Bleed. If the bleed is successful, draw two cards (discard afterward).[C] Ⓓ Bleed. If the bleed is successful, this vampire unlocks.


Thank You for Your help in advance
  

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21 May 2021 06:03 #102276 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Bleeds

Hello,

i have  2 questions about bleed actions

1) if A is bleeding B, and B has played reaction to reduce this bleed, can A play action modifier to increase it after that? And if yes, can B try to bounce this bleed after A played action modifier that increase bleed?

Yes to all.

2) According to rulebook in Bleed section

"If the action succeeds, the target Methuselah burns an amount of pool equal to the bleed amount. By default, all vampires have a bleed amount of 1. If the action succeeds and the bleed amount is 1 or more, then the bleed is successful and the controller of the acting minion gets the Edge, taking it from the Methuselah who has it, if any."

If bleed form Flurry of Action is unblocked but reduced to 0 following are thruth:

- I can play Freak Drive on inferior to unlock because action is successful?

Yes. Even though the bleed itself was not successful, the bleed action was since it was not blocked.

- I cannot trigger Flurry of Action because despite of that action is successfull, bleed  reduced to 0 isn't?

Correct.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

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21 May 2021 11:21 #102279 by filavander
Replied by filavander on topic Bleeds
Hi,
As far as I know any action is divided into smaller parts, i.e.
a. Bleed declaration.
b. Modifiers (i.e. Seduction).
c. Block attempts.
d. Modifiers (i.e. increasing bleed).
e. Bounces (i.e Deflection).
f. Bleed reduction (i.e Ectasy).
g. Modifiers (i.e. Spying Mission, Freak Drive).

1. Could anyone confirm if the steps above really exist and make the list above complete and set it in right order?
2. If the list above is correct (at least partially), is it possible to play bleed modifiers increasing bleed after point (d.)?
3. Can we separate statements ("bleed successful" from "action successful")? I.e. bleed for 0 is unsuccessful but action was not blocked - is the action unsuccessful either (can we use i.e. inferior Freak Drive)?
Thanks in advance for deeper clarifications.

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21 May 2021 13:29 #102280 by Yomyael
Replied by Yomyael on topic Bleeds
It isn't as set into stone as you're trying to make it. So yes, after announcing the action there is a specific window where cards like seduction may be played. This window closes as soon as you play a card that you don't have to play at that time.

All other action modifiers either require a specific trigger (like spying mission and freak drive) and can only be played after that condition has been met, or they don't, in which case they can be played at any time. So you can for example play a bleed increase modifier between b) and c), during c) or between e) and g).

The same applies to reaction cards. There are some that have to be played as the action is announced, some can be played after a certain trigger is met (e.g. declining to block for a Deflection or similar things), or none at all in which case you can play them whenever the controller of the acting minion passes the opportunity to do so.

There is one very grave error in your list: most bleed reduce cards (i.e. Ecstasy) do not require you to decline a block. You can play that at any time during the action.

Until you started resolution of the action bleed increase can be played. When the action resolves, you can only play modifiers that specify things in the resolution, like Spying mission and Freak Drive. Resolution starts when all methuselahs decline to annuonce a block or decline to play a card.

A succesfull bleed and a succesfull action are different things. An action that has reached resolution without being blocked is succesfull. If that action was a bleed action, the bleed itself is only succesfull when the amount is greater than 0. Whether the bleed is succesfull or not has no impact on whether the action is succesfull or not.

Prince of Bonn, Germany
The following user(s) said Thank You: self biased

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21 May 2021 15:24 #102282 by filavander
Replied by filavander on topic Bleeds
Thanks for the answer. In the begining I would like to remind you that I just try to let you understand the point of the problem the best I can and don't declare anything for sure.

I don't say that there is no flexibility in the game, but I believe that there any rules which apply am I right?

"So you can for example play a bleed increase modifier between b) and c), during c) or between e) and g)"
Really? Even when bleed is not bounced after the (f.) I can increase bleed with an action modifier?

Maybe you meant situation when bleed is bounced?

There are two useful informations in your expose. The first that decreasing bleed can be done not only in a window and the answer regarding separating "bleed/action sucessful".

If you want to give a decent and usefull answer, which doesn't leave gaps and understatement, split bleed action into windows or develop more specific method. Thanks in advance.

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21 May 2021 21:09 #102287 by Khormag
Replied by Khormag on topic Bleeds
There is no phase or stack system in VTES. Instead there is a priority system. When ever some one plays a card, others have a window to react to it.

So you can indeed play an action modifier to increase the bleed, after the target has indicated to not bouncing it, but they then have a new window to play cards (bounce, reduce). As long as all conditions specified on the cards apply.

Prince of Joensuu, Finland

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