file Bleeds

21 May 2021 22:33 - 21 May 2021 22:38 #102288 by filavander
Replied by filavander on topic Bleeds
Ok, lets take some examples...
1. DEFLECTION EXAMPLE.
a. Player A declares bleed.
b. Player B declares: no block.
c. Player A wants to play: Command of the Beast and Conditioning.
- can player A play both bleed modifiers one after another or can play only one modifier and then needs to wait for player B response, i.e. for player B bouncing cards?
- maybe when player B declares "no block" should ask what bleed modifiers player A wants to play, then decide if he wants to bounce it or not?

2. REDUCE BLEED EXAMPLE.
- Player A declares bleed (i.e. Govern Unaligned).
- Player B declares no block.
- Player A declares he doesn't want to increase bleed amount.
- Player B declares: no bounces.
- Player A declares not to increase bleed amount.
- Player B declares to reduce bleed with Ophidian Gaze and Ectasy.
As I understood, player A is allowed to play bleed modifiers now yes? (i.e. Conditioning).
And player B is allowed to bounce the bleed after playing these new bleed modifiers?
In event when player B bounces the modified bleed, what amount of bleed is redirected to player C? (i.e. Govern + Conditioning, total amount 6 or, reduced by Ophidian Gaze and Ectasy total amount 3)?
Last edit: 21 May 2021 22:38 by filavander.

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21 May 2021 23:32 - 21 May 2021 23:40 #102289 by Khormag
Replied by Khormag on topic Bleeds
1.

A can play both if he wants to. You can also wait a bit in between playing those, but B can still deflect if he wants to even after the second modifier is played.

2.

Yes, you can still increase the bleed after the reduces are played. And yes, it can still be bounced after that. Reduces also apply to the bounced bleed, so Govern + Conditioning would be a bleed of 3 with Ophidian Gaze and Ecstasy played to reduce it.

You can even take this further. Lets say that in the second example, the player B decided to attempt to block the bleed, player A plays stealth, player B plays intercept, and A plays more stealth, at which point B declines the block, then plays the reduction cards, after which A plays Conditioning and B then bounces the bleed. Lets say player C then reduces the bleed too, with Ophidian Gaze of his own, and then chooses to bounce the bleed back to B, the B can now attempt to block the bleed (of 1, because it is reduced by 2x Ophidian Gaze and 1x Ecstasy) again, and still has the Intercept available on the minion he played it on earlier, as the action is still the same. So he might have drawn more intercept, and might now succeed in blocking the action.

Prince of Joensuu, Finland
Last edit: 21 May 2021 23:40 by Khormag.
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22 May 2021 08:43 #102293 by Yomyael
Replied by Yomyael on topic Bleeds
Maybe an explanation of the impulse will help. This is how priority to play a card in V:tES is handled.

Whenever something happens, the active methuselah gains the impulse. This means that methuselah has the opportunity to play a card. The active methuselah is in general the methuselah whose turn it is, or the one who controlls the acting minion when you can act out of turn.

When the active methuselah does something, like using an ability of a card in play or playing a card, that methuselah gets the impulse. So they can play the next card or use the next effect. If the active methuselah doesn't want to play a acrd anymore, the impulse is passed. In a directed action, first to the target, then clockwise around the table, until someone wants to use it to do something. If someone does something, the impulse immediately goes back to the active methuselah after that. If all pass the impulse, the window of opportunity to play a card has passed and the action moves on to the next step.

So consider, in much detail, a bleed action of A against B. For some simplicity I will assume that if there are other players, they don't have an effect to use or play.

It starts of with playing the action card. In the "as played" window, only cards that can cancel the action card (like direct intervention) can be played. A obviously doesn't want to do that, so the impulse is passed to B. Either B does something, giving the impulse back to A, or doesn't and the action card is played and moves on to the "as announced" window. This window will in principle be repeated after each played card, but I won't go into that detail when going along.

In the as the action is announced window, cards that can only be played in that window can be played. A gets the first opportunity and plays a card. Then A can decide to play another card, or pass the impulse. If A passes, then B can decide to play a card or not. If B plays a card, A gets the opportunity to play a card again. If B does not play a card, both have passed and the window is over, so A cannot play another card in the "as the action is announced" window anymore.

After that, A gets again the opportunity to play cards. When A passes the impulse to B, B can play cards or decide if a minion B controls wants to attempt a block, or decline blocks. Whatever B decides, A gets the impulse back again. At this point a decision has to be made by B, since B either has to play a card, block, or don't block. Every time an effect is used or a card is played, A gets the impulse back. So unless both players pass, A has always the opportunity to play a card, as long as it isn't restricted to a certain time window that hasn't happened. So A can in principle play as many cards after one another as A wants, but everytime B does something the next opportunity to do something goes to A.

Note that declining to block is a choice, so B hasn't passed when deciding not to block. Therefore after that, A can still play cards. Also, if A doesn't want to play cards after that and passes the impulse back to B, B can again play cards. This is where Deflection and similar cards are played.

If both players pass at some point consecutively, the resolution of the action happens. This is where it is checked if there is a block attempt with sufficient intercept to block the action, or not. If so, the action is blocked and goes to block resolution. If not, the action is not blocked and goes to action resolution This is where cards like Change of Target or Spying Mission are played. Also, this is the first time where it isn't possible anymore to play general Action Modifiers like Conditioning.

After resolution then cards like Freak Drive can be played if the conditions are met, according to the same priority principle as before.

I hope this wall of text helps and that I didn't make any mistakes while writing it^^

Prince of Bonn, Germany
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22 May 2021 09:54 #102294 by filavander
Replied by filavander on topic Bleeds
Thanks for help, now I'll be more aware what's going on the table :).
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23 May 2021 08:09 - 23 May 2021 08:10 #102296 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Bleeds

1.

A can play both if he wants to. You can also wait a bit in between playing those, but B can still deflect if he wants to even after the second modifier is played.

 

If A waits a bit between playing the second card, it's more because A is still thinking but hasn't decided to play a card or to pass yet.
So A plays cards until they pass. Then B can play one card. But if A plays one card and passes the impulse, then they cannot play another card if B does not play any effect.
My advice is: if A plays Conditioning, B would better ask A if they have something else to play to make sure A passes the impulse (or not), rather than rushing playing a Deflection.

In any case, the summary by Yomyael is thorough.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 23 May 2021 08:10 by Ankha.
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25 May 2021 10:20 #102309 by Timo
Replied by Timo on topic Bleeds
Just for nitpicking purpose:

You could replace most "play a card" by "use an effect".

Burning a blood with Anu is handled in the same way (impulse wise) than playing a command of the beast.

And locking a Creepshow Casino is handled in the same way (impulse wise again ^^) than playing a Seduction.

Name: Anu Diptinatpa
[HttB:U/A2]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Nagaraja
Group: 6
Capacity: 7
Discipline: aus vic DOM NEC
Independent: During {a bleed} action, Anu can burn 1 blood to give {the acting} minion +1 bleed. Scarce.
Artist: Robin Chyo

Name: Creepshow Casino
[FN:R2, Third:PB, SP:LB1, V5:PTo1]
Cardtype: Master
Cost: 2 pool
Unique location.
Lock as a vampire you control announces an undirected action to give that vampire +1 stealth, even if stealth is not yet needed.
Artist: William O'Connor

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