file Lorenzo Detuono, timing questions

05 Jul 2021 10:57 - 05 Jul 2021 10:59 #102630 by Rémi
Dear all,

Could you please confirm that scenario?

- I control Lorenzo has 5 blood and he is in combat with Arika who is RedList and has 8 blood with an Helicopter.
- Lorenzo strike for 1 aggravated damage, Arika strike for 1 normal damage. There is no prevention effects.

Here comes the most complicated part for me:
Arika goes to torpor whil Lorenzo heal his damage so he goes to 4 bloods.
Lorenzo plays Amaranth and then activate his special ability to move Arika to my ready region.
As Lorenzo special ability states "instead", I understand that Diablery Process is not completed.

Question 1, is a Blood Hunt Called ? (I would say no)
Question 2, is it possible to play Ritual of the Bitter Roses? (I would say no)
Question 3, is Lorenzo considered to have done a Diablerie this turn? (I would say no)
Question 4, Can Lorenzo get any Trophies for burning a redlist minion? (I would say no)
Question 5, is it right that Lorenzo gets to 9 bloods while Arika arrive at my ready region with no blood? I understand that the first 2 steps of the Diablery process have to be done before choosing or not to activate Lorenzo Special Ability. (I would say yes)

From the Online rulebook:
Diablerie
Diablerie is the act of sending another vampire to final death by drinking their blood. Only ready vampires can commit diablerie. The vampire committing diablerie is referred to as the diablerist. Diablerie is resolved as follows:
1. All blood on the victim is moved to the diablerist. Blood in excess of their capacity drains off as normal.
2. The diablerist may take any equipment on the victim.
3. The victim is burned. Any cards and counters on them are also burned.

ADVANCED RULES
4. If the victim was older (had a higher capacity) than the diablerist, the diablerist can be given a Discipline: Their controller may go through their library, ash heap, and hand to get a master Discipline card to put on the diablerist and then shuffle their library or draw back up to their hand size as necessary. If the Discipline card increases the diablerist’s capacity, the diablerie does not give 1 blood to fill that new capacity.
5. If the victim was Red List, the diablerist may receive trophies (see Trophy).
The steps of diablerie are treated as a single unit. No effects can be used to interrupt the diablerie; effects may be played either before or after, as appropriate. 

Red List: Any Methuselah may use a master phase action to mark a Red List minion for the current turn. Any ready vampire they control may enter combat with a marked Red List minion as a +1 stealth {} action that costs 1 blood. Each vampire can perform this action only once each turn. If a vampire burns a Red List minion in combat or as a directed action (including diablerie), their controller may search their library, ash heap, and/or hand for a master trophy card to put on that vampire and then reshuffle their library or draw back up to her hand size as necessary. Other trophies in play that have not been awarded yet may be moved to this vampire as well, as the controller of each trophy wishes. This is done before the blood hunt referendum is called, if any.

Card text:
Amaranth
Only usable by a vampire who can commit diablerie. Only usable when the opposing vampire should go to torpor. Diablerize the opposing vampire instead. Not usable by a vampire being burned or going to torpor.

Ritual of the Bitter Rose
Each ready vampire you control gains an amount of blood from the blood bank equal to the amount of blood on a vampire being burned either by diablerie or while in combat with this vampire.

Lorenzo Detuono
Independent: If Lorenzo is ready at the end of combat and the opposing minion would not, instead Lorenzo can burn 5 blood to move the opposing minion to your ready region, with 1 life for an ally with no life. Red List.

Thanks in adance,
Rémi.

I am Rémi Cavaillé (), Barcelona (SPAIN). I was the Prince of Lyon (France) a long time ago around 2003

Vampire: Rivals - Prince of the City Barcelona (Spain) 2022, July 2nd
sites.google.com/view/khanjugar/actividad-2022/prince-of-the-city
Last edit: 05 Jul 2021 10:59 by Rémi.

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05 Jul 2021 12:04 #102631 by Legion
I believe your scenario is not works.
Lorenzo can't use his Ability, because there is no target for it. Arika is burned after Amaranth. After Arika is burned the answers are
1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Yes.
4. Yes.
5. No. Lorenzo gets 9 blood but Arika is burned.

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05 Jul 2021 12:15 #102632 by Ankha

Dear all,

Could you please confirm that scenario?

- I control Lorenzo has 5 blood and he is in combat with Arika who is RedList and has 8 blood with an Helicopter.
- Lorenzo strike for 1 aggravated damage, Arika strike for 1 normal damage. There is no prevention effects.

Here comes the most complicated part for me:
Arika goes to torpor whil Lorenzo heal his damage so he goes to 4 bloods.
Lorenzo plays Amaranth and then activate his special ability to move Arika to my ready region.

Lorenzo gets the blood when the diablerie takes place, which is too late to use his special. Replacement effects happen "instead" of the actual effect (for instance, being diablerized).

As Lorenzo special ability states "instead", I understand that Diablery Process is not completed.

It hasn't even started yet.

groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/CMnw9dGAZkg/m/FoW3kooxmooJ

Question 1, is a Blood Hunt Called ? (I would say no)

No, since there is no diablerie.

Question 2, is it possible to play Ritual of the Bitter Roses? (I would say no)

No, the minion needs to burn.

Question 3, is Lorenzo considered to have done a Diablerie this turn? (I would say no)

No.

Question 4, Can Lorenzo get any Trophies for burning a redlist minion? (I would say no)

No, the Red List minion was not burned.
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/cfyYrNIp6ME/m/tL4nLhm_b_8J

Question 5, is it right that Lorenzo gets to 9 bloods while Arika arrive at my ready region with no blood? I understand that the first 2 steps of the Diablery process have to be done before choosing or not to activate Lorenzo Special Ability. (I would say yes)

No, there were no diablerie at all.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
The following user(s) said Thank You: Rémi

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05 Jul 2021 18:11 #102638 by beslin igor
Sory whu i need confirmation (maybe is me english problem),so after this scenario,if that happen in end: 
 Lorenzo gets to 9 bloods while Arika arrive at my ready region with no blood?

In this  part of Ankha answer too late confuse me: Lorenzo gets the blood when the diablerie takes place, which is too late to use his special. Replacement effects happen "instead" of the actual effect (for instance, being diablerized).

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05 Jul 2021 18:45 - 05 Jul 2021 18:53 #102639 by Palamedes
For Beslin Igor on serbian:
kad Lorenzo odigra Amaranth vec je kasno da koristi svoj abiliti, jer njegov abiliti kaze "umesto" (da protivnicki minion napusti ready region). Dakle, uzme krv od Arike i Arika je diablerisana. Ne moze da je stavi u ready regiju.
da dodam, amaranth i lorenzov abiliti se desavaju u istom trenutku, sto ce reci da ti biras sta ce prvo da se desi, a sta god da se desi, to iskljucuje ono drugo.
Last edit: 05 Jul 2021 18:53 by Palamedes.
The following user(s) said Thank You: beslin igor

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05 Jul 2021 21:44 - 05 Jul 2021 21:46 #102641 by inm8

For Beslin Igor on serbian:
kad Lorenzo odigra Amaranth vec je kasno da koristi svoj abiliti, jer njegov abiliti kaze "umesto" (da protivnicki minion napusti ready region). Dakle, uzme krv od Arike i Arika je diablerisana. Ne moze da je stavi u ready regiju.
da dodam, amaranth i lorenzov abiliti se desavaju u istom trenutku, sto ce reci da ti biras sta ce prvo da se desi, a sta god da se desi, to iskljucuje ono drugo.

 

if translate worked fine I think the above isn’t entirely correct.

when Lorenzo plays Amaranth it is too late to use his ability, because his ability says "instead" (that the opposing minion leaves the ready region). So, he took blood from Arica and Arica was diablerized. He can't put it in the ready region.
to add, amaranth and lorenz's abilities happen at the same time, which means that you choose what happens first, and whatever happens, that excludes the other.


As per the ruling [LSJ 20071109]  it is not to late to use Lorenzo’s ability after playing Amaranth.
The un-prevented strike of aggravated damage is what enables Amaranth to be played and diablerizes Arika instead of going to torpor ....both “would go to torpor” and “would be burned because of diableri” qualify as not being “ready at the end of combat” for the ability of Lorenzo. If Lorenzo’s ability is triggered then instead of Arika either going to torpor (because of aggravated damage) or being burned (because of the diableri effect triggered by Amaranth) she would go to your ready region with all the cards and blood on her.
Just to be clear in the example given here Lorenzo would end up going to torpor if his ability is triggered, because the 5 blood he had would have been used/burnt to pay for his ability leaving him with non to heal the 1 damage with resulting in him wounded and sent to torpor...therefore the requirement for his ability can’t be met (Lorenzo being ready at the end of combat) thus his ability can’t be used and Arika would be burned by the diableri triggered from Amaranth with all that it means...moving blood etc.
If Lorenzo would have had 6 blood in the same scenario you would be sitting with a bloodless Lorenzo and with Arika with 9 blood and whatever cards she had on her in your ready region. Also as mentioned by LSJ in the ruling ....playing Amaranth followed by Lorenzo’s ability only serves to cycle Amaranth out as it would not provide any effect in that combination.
 
Last edit: 05 Jul 2021 21:46 by inm8.

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