file Clarification needed on Eternals of Sirius rulings

19 Jul 2021 20:19 #102730 by Kilrauko

Its not pretty clear for me.
You can not oust yoursel by error in any way, this is true?
Some players wants to oust himself (there are exemples that you can win a tournament if you oust yourself). Could one of these player play Eternal of Sirius if they have less than 4 pool?

There's a difference between ousting yourself by error according to the rules of the game AND ousting yourself by error by not following the rules of the game. Hence the statement that one cannot oust themself by error in an way is one that cannot be answered with blank statement. We first need to determine if the error is "oops, I had one pool and played DI" or if it's "oops, I forgot how the rules work and made illegal play."

It becomes very clear when you consider if there is a specific rule that allows you to attempt something you cannot do?
Can you attempt to play +bleed on non bleed action?
Can you attempt to oust yourself with 5 transfers when you only have 4 transfers?
Can you do thing x that you cannot do to gain game benefit?Rulebook is clear when it comes to cost and playing cards, and LSJ in the past has said quite clearly on attempting something that is not possible, and I quote both below;

A number in a red drop represents blood cost (the amount of blood the vampire must burn). Only a vampire with enough blood on them can play a card with a blood cost. A number in a white diamond with a skull represents pool cost (the amount of pool the Methuselah must burn). Only a Methuselah with enough pool can play a card with a pool cost.

4 is enough, 3 is not. In tournament settings if it's intentional with aim to cheat, aka claiming 3 pool is enough to play eternals of sirius and knowing the difference would net tournament advantage;

163. Cheating - FraudDefinition:A player intentionally misrepresents rules, procedures, personal information, or any other relevant tournament information.Example:A player uses a fake name and V:EKN number when registering for a tournament.Philosophy:There should be zero tolerance for this type of activity.Penalty:Disqualification without Prize.

and if unintentional, aka they have not in the past asked a question relating to the matter in VEKN forum, have not discussed it and are complete newb to how pool costs work, or forget that the cost is 4, assume it is 3, have 3 pool and declare it for 3;

114. Procedural Error - MisrepresentationDefinition:A player is considered to have committed this infraction when he or she unintentionally misplayed a card or a game rule.Example:(A) A player attempts to play Dread Gaze on a referendum that one of his vampires called.(B) A player attempts to play Frenzy during his own turn.(C) A player plays Art Museum when she doesn't have any ready Toreador.Philosophy:This penalty assumes an unintentional action on behalf of the player. If the judge believes the misrepresentation was intentional, see section 160 - Cheating.Penalty:Caution

Oh and the LSJ quote on whether or not one can attempt something they cannot do;

On Aug 23, 9:44 am, Sim < > wrote:
> Hmmmm, I don't agree with this.  I don't see why you can't do this
> action knowing it will very likely fail.Because you can't attempt something you cannot do.

I recommend reading that LSJ topic, it's related to attempting illegal action where one does not meet all the requirements for it. Or consider it like this, if we allowed things that cannot be done, to be attempted in VTES, what's there to prevent me from "attempting" to move pool counters from blood bank to my pool, and have it be perfectly valid play as long as nobody catches me on it? Or other way around if it's matter of getting ousted faster. If attempting something that cannot be done would somehow be allowed, why bother with playing Eternals, why not just move the counters from your pool to blood bank on the sly?

I hope with those you can clear the situation and hopefully it will be clear to you as well.

TL:DR Rules say you cannot play cards you cannot pay the cost for, therefore you cannot even attempt to play them as otherwise you're breaking the rules saying you cannot play the cards you cannot pay the cost for.

TL:DR of the TL:DR You cannot attempt what you cannot do.

Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.

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