file Coma/Entombment/Liquify the Mortal Coil.

15 Apr 2022 20:18 - 15 Apr 2022 20:21 #105012 by TryDeflectingThisGrapple
A question from the week's game session about strikes which do meaningful things before entering Damage Resolution. We think this is new (and unintended) behavior.

RULESBOOK SECTION REFERENCE: Combat > Strike > Resolve Strike

Resolve Strike: The effects of the strikes from both minions are resolved simultaneously. Most strikes are effective only at close range, unless the strike is identified as ranged, does “R” damage, or is a defensive strike such as dodge or combat ends. Ranged strikes and strikes that do “R” damage can be used at any range, close or long.

When a minion or retainer takes damage (either from a strike or from other means), they must burn blood or life, as appropriate (see Damage Resolution). Note that the effects of a strike are applied and then damage is resolved. This timing is important for some special strikes. If one or both of the combatants are no longer ready, because one has taken too much damage, for instance, then the round and the combat end immediately.

This is true at any point during combat, not just during strike resolution.


SCENARIO: Vampire A is in combat with Vampire B. Vampire A plays Entombment as a strike, Vampire B plays Roundhouse.

QUESTION: Does Vampire A take damage from Vampire B's Roundhouse strike?

ANALYSIS: Based on the section quoted above, Vampire B goes to torpor as soon as Entombment resolves....which by definition is during the strike resolution phase (preceding and discrete from the damage resolution step).

The italicized rules text referenced above explicitly states that the round and combat end immediately. In this case, jumping from the strike resolution phase to the end of round phase, bypassing everything between....including the damage resolution step. So there is no window in which Vampire A can/must heal damage from B's Roundhouse.

To us, it appears that the new combat timing breakdown functionally changed Coma, Entombment (and to a lesser extent Liquify the Mortal Coil). They all now have implicit immunity from strikes made by the opposing minion.

NOTE: This is different from the older rulings [LSJ 19971110] and [ANK 20190725], which involve handling damage from a step that the combatants are already in (think Weather Control preceding an Alpha Glint).

This new behavior seems to more like avoiding Drawing Out the Beast press step damage by torping the opposing minion with your strike, thereby skipping the press step and avoiding the DotB damage.

Is this a correct reflection of the current rules as written?
Last edit: 15 Apr 2022 20:21 by TryDeflectingThisGrapple. Reason: Grammatical corrections

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15 Apr 2022 22:01 - 15 Apr 2022 22:03 #105013 by Legion
Yes, Vampire A takes damage from Vampire B.
Both strikes resolves simultaneously. Vampire B goes to torpor, Vampire A takes damage. One of combatants is not ready - that means nor additional strikes, no presses, round ends.

You can heal on Strike Resolution step and you can play cards ‘at the end of the round’.
Last edit: 15 Apr 2022 22:03 by Legion.

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16 Apr 2022 06:44 #105014 by inm8
Any applied damage at any stage of a combat has to be handled by going through the Damage Resolution step, regardless of if combat ends because one of the minion is no longer ready and sent to torpor or burned.

The misunderstanding you are having is that you are confusing "Strike: Combat Ends" with "combat ending because at least one of the combatants isn´t ready" which have different timing and thereby affects the course of the combat differently;

"Strike: Combat Ends"
The effect is resolved before any other strike and ends combat, by ending combat before the resolution of other effects there isn´t (normally) any damage to handle as the damaging strikes are prevented from resolving.

"Combat ending because at least one of the combatants isn´t ready"
Here combat is ending "normally" after the resolution of the chosen strikes and thereby there would commonly be damage to handle or has already been handled. Any damage that is applied has to go through the Damage Resolution step.

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16 Apr 2022 14:28 - 16 Apr 2022 14:33 #105019 by TryDeflectingThisGrapple

Yes, Vampire A takes damage from Vampire B.
Both strikes resolves simultaneously. Vampire B goes to torpor, Vampire A takes damage. One of combatants is not ready - that means nor additional strikes, no presses, round ends.

You can heal on Strike Resolution step and you can play cards ‘at the end of the round’.


The Rule book states (extra spacing omitted):

Combat Sequence
Combat occurs in a series of one or more rounds. Each round of combat has seven steps:
1. Before Range: Play cards before range is chosen.
2. Determine Range: Use maneuvers to change the range to close or long.
3. Before Strikes: Play cards before strikes are chosen.
4. Strike: Announce and resolve strikes.
5. Damage Resolution: Prevent and mend damage.
6. Press: Use presses to continue into another round or to end combat.
7. End of Round: End of round cards and effects are played here.


Please keep that section of the rule book in mind.

If, as you say, "You can heal on Strike Resolution step" (step 4: announce and resolve strikes) then perhaps you could help me understand what the next-in-line damage resolution step (step 5: prevent and mend damage) is actually intended to do?

With no damage remaining to be address if you heal in step 4, is step 5 meaningless?

If I recall correctly, this is the first iteration of the rulebook that separates these two effects (going from 3 combat steps to 7). So in the past, we would handle damage within the same step. Now, the rules suggest otherwise - hence the inquiry (which I don't think your response puts to rest).
Last edit: 16 Apr 2022 14:33 by TryDeflectingThisGrapple. Reason: Correction of step numbering.

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16 Apr 2022 14:39 - 16 Apr 2022 14:41 #105020 by TryDeflectingThisGrapple

Any applied damage at any stage of a combat has to be handled by going through the Damage Resolution step, regardless of if combat ends because one of the minion is no longer ready and sent to torpor or burned.

The misunderstanding you are having is that you are confusing "Strike: Combat Ends" with "combat ending because at least one of the combatants isn´t ready" which have different timing and thereby affects the course of the combat differently;

"Strike: Combat Ends"
The effect is resolved before any other strike and ends combat, by ending combat before the resolution of other effects there isn´t (normally) any damage to handle as the damaging strikes are prevented from resolving.

"Combat ending because at least one of the combatants isn´t ready"
Here combat is ending "normally" after the resolution of the chosen strikes and thereby there would commonly be damage to handle or has already been handled. Any damage that is applied has to go through the Damage Resolution step.


Sigh. Yes, this is the way things always worked before. We all get that.

The newest rulebook says to proceed from any step that you're in, directly to step 7, any time a vampire goes to torpor. This is new rules text, and I'm actually more interested in having that text corrected than I am in creating some new card behavior.

From the rules book:
This timing is important for some special strikes. If one or both of the combatants are no longer ready, because one has taken too much damage, for instance, then the round and the combat end immediately.

If you can find a rules reference that alters the current rulebook text from "end immediately" to "proceed immediately to step 7, but oh wait, you've gotta go through step 5 anyway" - then I'm all ears.

And if you can find that reference, it'll make me wonder why, you don't also have to move though step 6 to deal with any damage that is queued for that stage too.
Last edit: 16 Apr 2022 14:41 by TryDeflectingThisGrapple.

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16 Apr 2022 14:59 #105021 by inm8
That things can be improved in regards to the rulebook I fully agree on.
Nowhere does it say that applied damage can be ignored because something causes the combat to end.

There are numerous rulings that make it clear that damage applied has to go through the Damage Resolution step...this can be before range is determined and after strike resolution both of which should be added to the rulebook for clarity.

Unfortunately, I have no rulebook section that makes it clear and the best you will get for now will be a ruling from Ankha when he replies to this thread.
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