file Sudario Refraction

05 Jan 2023 12:43 #107131 by inm8
Sudario Refraction was created by inm8
Question from the discord

- A plays Sudario Refraction, and targets the other Sudario in their Ash Heap (they have only one there) for the effect (and two other cards)
- B does not block, but they use Erciyes Fragments to remove the one Sudario Refraction from the ash heap of A
- Upon resolution, does the played Sudario card go to ash heap _before_ resolution and can be used as a target, or not?

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05 Jan 2023 13:07 #107132 by Legion
Replied by Legion on topic Sudario Refraction
I belive all these questions were answered already codex-of-the-damned.org/en/card-search.html?card=Sudario+Refraction

1. The chosen cards are named when the action is declared. The current Sudario cannot be part of them. [LSJ 20050422](groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/nJPfMOuTBtw/COytKb_oEM4J)[LSJ 20090722](groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/r-N65rA52uo/OXW8xk1r1iMJ) 
2. Any copy of the named card can be fetched upon resolution. [LSJ 20090722](groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/r-N65rA52uo/OXW8xk1r1iMJ) 
3. If no copy of a named card is in the ash heap upon resolution (eg. The Erciyes Fragments was used to take it), the effect still resolves for the other copies and the acting Methuselah discards 3 cards. [LSJ 20090722](groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/r-N65rA52uo/OXW8xk1r1iMJ) 

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05 Jan 2023 14:35 #107134 by lip
Replied by lip on topic Sudario Refraction
I don't think these rulings answer this specific scenario:
1. Means you cannot choose Sudario if you do not have one in the ash heap, but in the scenario here, you do have one. If you go check the linked rulings there, they say nothing about having a Sudario in the ash heap but selecting another (the one you played) upon resolution.
2. Means you can fetch whichever Sudario when it resolves, so if the Sudario used for the action hits the ash heap upon resolution but before (or can be ordered before) the effect resolution itself, you should be able to fetch it
3. Means that if the Sudario you played hits the ash heap upon resolution but only after you resolved the effect, it has to fizzle, you cannot select the Sudario you played at resolution

Hence the question and the need for a ruling here. It is very much linked to inm8's question on the exact timing for a card to be put in the ash heap. It will give us a more precise answer than "it is put in the ash heap upon resolution".

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05 Jan 2023 18:19 - 06 Jan 2023 10:07 #107145 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Sudario Refraction

I don't think these rulings answer this specific scenario:
1. Means you cannot choose Sudario if you do not have one in the ash heap, but in the scenario here, you do have one. If you go check the linked rulings there, they say nothing about having a Sudario in the ash heap but selecting another (the one you played) upon resolution.
2. Means you can fetch whichever Sudario when it resolves, so if the Sudario used for the action hits the ash heap upon resolution but before (or can be ordered before) the effect resolution itself, you should be able to fetch it
3. Means that if the Sudario you played hits the ash heap upon resolution but only after you resolved the effect, it has to fizzle, you cannot select the Sudario you played at resolution

Hence the question and the need for a ruling here. It is very much linked to inm8's question on the exact timing for a card to be put in the ash heap. It will give us a more precise answer than "it is put in the ash heap upon resolution".


The Sudario Refraction you play cannot be chosen for its own effect, because it doesn't go to the ash heap until the resolution is over.

So, if
1/ you had a single Sudario Refraction (A) in your ash heap
2/ and you named "Sudario Refraction" as part of the declaration of the Sudario Refraction
(B) action
3/ and the Sudario Refraction (A) in your ash heap is removed before resolution

then the action (B) fizzles as you can't bring back (B) as part of its own effect.
only brings back the two other cards, as (B) can't be brung back as part of its own effect.

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Last edit: 06 Jan 2023 10:07 by Ankha.

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06 Jan 2023 08:12 - 06 Jan 2023 08:22 #107148 by Hobbesgoblin
Replied by Hobbesgoblin on topic Sudario Refraction

I don't think these rulings answer this specific scenario:
1. Means you cannot choose Sudario if you do not have one in the ash heap, but in the scenario here, you do have one. If you go check the linked rulings there, they say nothing about having a Sudario in the ash heap but selecting another (the one you played) upon resolution.
2. Means you can fetch whichever Sudario when it resolves, so if the Sudario used for the action hits the ash heap upon resolution but before (or can be ordered before) the effect resolution itself, you should be able to fetch it
3. Means that if the Sudario you played hits the ash heap upon resolution but only after you resolved the effect, it has to fizzle, you cannot select the Sudario you played at resolution

Hence the question and the need for a ruling here. It is very much linked to inm8's question on the exact timing for a card to be put in the ash heap. It will give us a more precise answer than "it is put in the ash heap upon resolution".


The Sudario Refraction you play cannot be chosen for its own effect, because it doesn't go to the ash heap until the resolution is over.

So, if
1/ you had a single Sudario Refraction (A) in your ash heap
2/ and you named "Sudario Refraction" as part of the declaration of the Sudario Refraction
(B) action
3/ and the Sudario Refraction (A) in your ash heap is removed before resolution

then the action (B) fizzles as you can't bring back (B) as part of its own effect.


I found an answer to this question in LSJ 20090722 where it was ruled differently

> Q1 - Suppose I play Sudario Refraction, and set these terms: Sudario
> Refraction (1), Call of the Hungry Dead (1), Deflection (2). [In
> parentheses are the number of cards with that name in my ash heap].
> My predator uses his Erciyes Fragment during the action, removing the
> Call of the Hungry Dead from my ash heap. There is no bock attempt
> during the action, and we reach resolution.
> What happens next? Is it:
> a - Nothing. No card moves, I do not discard 3 cards.
> or
> b - All the cards that could move from my ash heap to the top of my
> library I move, then I discard 3 (independently of the number of cards
> moved previously) cards at random, and draw back to hand size.

b.

> Q2 - When setting the terms for Sudario Refraction, does one choose
> specific cards in one's ash heap, or does one choose names of cards?

Names.

> Example: I play Sudario Refraction on Sudario Refraction (1), Call of
> the Hungry Dead (1), and Deflection (2). My predator uses his/her
> Erciyes Fragment to remove the Call of the Hungry Dead from my ash
> heap. In the process of the action, I play a Call of the Hungry Dead.
> The action is not blocked and we reach resolution.
> What happens next? Is it
> a - Nothing, just as above.
> or
> b - I move the cards which match the names I gave when announcing the
> action terms to the top of my library, discard 3 cards at random, and
> draw back to hand size.

b.



The Outliend scenario here is very similar, difference being, it looks at the action card itself, isntead of a mofifier played during the action.

With your post I have the folling questions;

Is your ruling a reversal of the ruliing on Q1 about partial recovery? (LSJ said partial recovers is possible, you say action fizzles)

Is your ruling a reversal on the rulign, taht cards are chosen by name, and not by copy?
(if there are two defelctions in the ahs heap, I have to chose a specific one)
or does your ruling mean, that Sudario has not hit the ash heap at the point of resolution?
Last edit: 06 Jan 2023 08:22 by Hobbesgoblin.

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06 Jan 2023 10:06 #107149 by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Sudario Refraction

I don't think these rulings answer this specific scenario:
1. Means you cannot choose Sudario if you do not have one in the ash heap, but in the scenario here, you do have one. If you go check the linked rulings there, they say nothing about having a Sudario in the ash heap but selecting another (the one you played) upon resolution.
2. Means you can fetch whichever Sudario when it resolves, so if the Sudario used for the action hits the ash heap upon resolution but before (or can be ordered before) the effect resolution itself, you should be able to fetch it
3. Means that if the Sudario you played hits the ash heap upon resolution but only after you resolved the effect, it has to fizzle, you cannot select the Sudario you played at resolution

Hence the question and the need for a ruling here. It is very much linked to inm8's question on the exact timing for a card to be put in the ash heap. It will give us a more precise answer than "it is put in the ash heap upon resolution".


The Sudario Refraction you play cannot be chosen for its own effect, because it doesn't go to the ash heap until the resolution is over.

So, if
1/ you had a single Sudario Refraction (A) in your ash heap
2/ and you named "Sudario Refraction" as part of the declaration of the Sudario Refraction
(B) action
3/ and the Sudario Refraction (A) in your ash heap is removed before resolution

then the action (B) fizzles as you can't bring back (B) as part of its own effect.


I found an answer to this question in LSJ 20090722 where it was ruled differently

> Q1 - Suppose I play Sudario Refraction, and set these terms: Sudario
> Refraction (1), Call of the Hungry Dead (1), Deflection (2). [In
> parentheses are the number of cards with that name in my ash heap].
> My predator uses his Erciyes Fragment during the action, removing the
> Call of the Hungry Dead from my ash heap. There is no bock attempt
> during the action, and we reach resolution.
> What happens next? Is it:
> a - Nothing. No card moves, I do not discard 3 cards.
> or
> b - All the cards that could move from my ash heap to the top of my
> library I move, then I discard 3 (independently of the number of cards
> moved previously) cards at random, and draw back to hand size.

b.

> Q2 - When setting the terms for Sudario Refraction, does one choose
> specific cards in one's ash heap, or does one choose names of cards?

Names.

> Example: I play Sudario Refraction on Sudario Refraction (1), Call of
> the Hungry Dead (1), and Deflection (2). My predator uses his/her
> Erciyes Fragment to remove the Call of the Hungry Dead from my ash
> heap. In the process of the action, I play a Call of the Hungry Dead.
> The action is not blocked and we reach resolution.
> What happens next? Is it
> a - Nothing, just as above.
> or
> b - I move the cards which match the names I gave when announcing the
> action terms to the top of my library, discard 3 cards at random, and
> draw back to hand size.

b.



The Outliend scenario here is very similar, difference being, it looks at the action card itself, isntead of a mofifier played during the action.

With your post I have the folling questions;

Is your ruling a reversal of the ruliing on Q1 about partial recovery? (LSJ said partial recovers is possible, you say action fizzles)

Is your ruling a reversal on the rulign, taht cards are chosen by name, and not by copy?
(if there are two defelctions in the ahs heap, I have to chose a specific one)
or does your ruling mean, that Sudario has not hit the ash heap at the point of resolution?


My mistake, it would only fizzle if you were unable to retrieve any of the three cards. You resolve Sudario Refraction and take as many cards as possible (two in our scenario).

Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
The following user(s) said Thank You: Hobbesgoblin

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