file Declining blocks impulse, Conditioning and Eagle's Sight

28 Aug 2023 16:09 - 28 Aug 2023 16:10 #109194 by inm8
Ankha, can you please also confirm if the below is the correct handling of the sequence for the main point of the topic, thanks.

- Player A bleeds, A then passes and impulse goes to prey B
- Player B declines to block, impulse goes to C (a minion declining to block doesn´t reset impulse to the acting)
- Player C plays Eagle´s Sight and attempts to block, impulse goes back to A
- Player A plays stealth and then passes impulse to B
- Player B passes and impulse goes to C (B cannot deflect the bleed because blocks are not yet declined "table state")
- Player C passes and impulse goes to D
- Player D passes and impulse goes to E
- Player E passes and block attempt is failed, the impulse goes back to A
- Player A passes and impulse goes to B (B has declined to block already and cannot choose to do so again)
- Player B passes impulse goes to C
- Player C passes and impulse goes to D (by passing on the opportunity to trigger effects or attempting to block it is considered to be declining to block)
- Player D declines to block and impulse goes to E
- Player E declines to block and impulse goes back to A (the fact that the entire table has declined to block is an impulse resetting event)
- Player A plays bleed modifier and passes impulse to B
- Player B plays Deflection changing the target of the bleed to C and impulse goes back to A (B could have played bleed reduction reaction instead)
- Player A passes and impulse goes to C
- Player C declines to block and impulse continues around the table where all players decline to block (C could have chosen to attempt to block as the choice to decline to block when B was the target is reset, block determination is reset if the target for the bleed is changed)
- Player A gets the impulse back as all have declined to block and chooses not to play any more effects and passes, impulse goes around the table with all players passing.
- Player A gets the impulse back, the bleed action is successful as it isn't blocked and the effect resolves resulting in C burning pool for the bleed (Spying Mission could have been played here before the resolution of the effect to modify it. After effect resolution there is an opportunity for eg Freak Drive etc.)

Last edit: 28 Aug 2023 16:10 by inm8.

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29 Aug 2023 10:26 #109200 by Ankha
If it complies with the following rules, then yes:

The action has been announced.

A - there is no current block attempt
1. the sequencing rule applies as normal
2. in addition to any effect that can be used during an action (playing an action modifier or reaction card, using effects of cards in play etc.), a Methuselah who can block (see Who May Attempt to Block) can declare a block attempt, switching to B - there is a current block attempt
3. if a Methuselah passes, that Methuselah cannot declare any block attempt until the end of the action unless the target of the action changes.
4. once every Methuselah has passed, switch to C - blocks have been declined

B - there is a current block attempt
1. the sequencing rule applies as normal
2. the target of the action cannot be changed
3. the Methuselah who has declared the current block attempt may use effects that force the currently blocking to attempt to block (no other minion can attempt to block until this block attempt is resolved)
4. once every Methuselah has passed, the block attempt is resolved: if it is successful, the action is unsuccessful and blocked. Otherwise, switch back to A - there is no current block attempt

C - blocks have been declined
1. the sequencing rule applies as normal
2. if the target of the action is changed, switch to A - there is no current block attempt
3. once every Methuselah has passed, the action is successful and resolves

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29 Aug 2023 13:00 #109204 by Ankha

OMG ... Does this mean, the sequence "regular block declined" => "bleed modifier played" => "Eagle's Sight block announced" is illegal play under ANY circumstances? And has EVER been so?
So many, many games that would have taken a different course ...

It's illegal if A played a card or effect without having the impulse.
Which is the case if B declines to block (passes the impulse to the next player C) and A plays an effect while C has the impulse.

The actual reason why you cannot play Conditioning and other modifiers that don't explicitly say that they are played in the "as announced" window is that the default timing window for modifiers is after action announcement and before action resolution, thus only modifiers with explicit text allowing them to be played outside the default window can do so.

Correct.

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31 Jan 2024 18:26 #110574 by beslin igor

Consider the following two examples, with five Methuselahs, A-E

Example 1:
A announces a bleed. Impulse back to A.
A declines to play any additional cards. Impulse to B.
B attempts to block. Impulse to A.
A plays stealth. Impulse to B.
B passes. (Note that their minion is still attempting to block because there is no decline to block only fails to block.). Impulse to C.
C locks WMRH to give B's minion intercept. Impulse to A.
A plays stealth. Impulse to B.
B passes. Impulse to C.
C passes. Impulse to D.
D wants to play Eagle's Sight, but cannot because there is still an active albeit failing blocker and E could make that block succeed (theoretically). D passes. Impulse to E.
E passes. Impulse to A.

If A plays Conditioning at this point, they have done so prior to getting any block attempts from C-E. You must resolve one Methuselah's attempts to completely before moving to the next Methuselah. And because other Methuselah's can play effects on the current blocking minion, all of the currently-attempting-to-block-Methuselah's minions must fail to block and all other Methuselah's must pass.

I cannot fathom a way in which that impulse doesn't pass to A for a Conditioning to be played before C-E get a chance to declare block attempts.

Example 2:
A declares a bleed. Impulse to A.
A passes. Impulse to B.
B passes. Impulse to C.

If C wants to play Eagle's Sight now and only now is the time for that. B passing all block attempts immediately puts C in a position to declare block attempts now or forever lose the ability to block.

Summary:
Given everything we know about lip's question, it seems to match example 2. If that is the case, then the illegally played Eagle's Sight must be returned to hand.

From a judging standpoint, this falls into two categories: did another Methuselah's minions attempt to block or not. If so, there is a window where the impulse moves back to the acting Methuselah before more block attempts can be made.


This example 1 is so complicated.
in moment:"C locks WMRH to give B's minion intercept. Impulse to A.
A plays stealth. Impulse to B.
B passes. Impulse to C.
C passes. Impulse to D.
D wants to play Eagle's Sight, but cannot because there is still an active albeit failing blocker and E could make that block succeed (theoretically). D passes. Impulse to E.
E passes. Impulse to A.

If A plays Conditioning at this point, they have done so prior to getting any block attempts from C-E. "

So A plays Conditioning, in this moment,B fail block now
C passes. Impulse to D.
D now can play Eagle's Sight and attempts to block?
if we have this that complicated,then also judge decisions can be optional and not clear.

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31 Jan 2024 21:34 #110576 by inm8

This example 1 is so complicated.
in moment:"C locks WMRH to give B's minion intercept. Impulse to A.
A plays stealth. Impulse to B.
B passes. Impulse to C.
C passes. Impulse to D.
D wants to play Eagle's Sight, but cannot because there is still an active albeit failing blocker and E could make that block succeed (theoretically). D passes. Impulse to E.
E passes. Impulse to A.

If A plays Conditioning at this point, they have done so prior to getting any block attempts from C-E. "


At this stage B has failed the attempt to block and A does not need to play anything and can just pass the impulse to B to see if a new attempt will be made or not. A can wait till everyone at the table has declined to block which give the impulse back to them to play the Conditioning if they want be sure not to waste it.

So A plays Conditioning, in this moment,B fail block now
C passes. Impulse to D.
D now can play Eagle's Sight and attempts to block?
if we have this that complicated,then also judge decisions can be optional and not clear.

Not clear what you are saying with this... the judge's decision should always be factual, correct, and clear.

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31 Jan 2024 22:41 #110579 by kschaefer

If it complies with the following rules, then yes:

The action has been announced.

A - there is no current block attempt
1. the sequencing rule applies as normal
2. in addition to any effect that can be used during an action (playing an action modifier or reaction card, using effects of cards in play etc.), a Methuselah who can block (see Who May Attempt to Block) can declare a block attempt, switching to B - there is a current block attempt
3. if a Methuselah passes, that Methuselah cannot declare any block attempt until the end of the action unless the target of the action changes.
4. once every Methuselah has passed, switch to C - blocks have been declined

B - there is a current block attempt
1. the sequencing rule applies as normal
2. the target of the action cannot be changed
3. the Methuselah who has declared the current block attempt may use effects that force the currently blocking to attempt to block (no other minion can attempt to block until this block attempt is resolved)
4. once every Methuselah has passed, the block attempt is resolved: if it is successful, the action is unsuccessful and blocked. Otherwise, switch back to A - there is no current block attempt

C - blocks have been declined
1. the sequencing rule applies as normal
2. if the target of the action is changed, switch to A - there is no current block attempt
3. once every Methuselah has passed, the action is successful and resolves


This is incorrect and based off an old ruling that Floppy made (www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/35703-eagle-s-sight-window-and-declaration#35711) from a version of the rulebook that I am unable to locate. That being said the ruling is outdated because of the wording in the current rulebook.

If a block attempt fails, either another attempt is made or the defending Methuselah declares that they will not make any further attempts to block the action. Note that this declaration is an effect and so allows the acting Methuselah (and others) to play more cards and effects.


That makes "declining to block" an "effect." Per the rulebook the acting Methuselah must regain the impulse.

Note that if any Methuselah uses a card or effect, the acting Methuselah again gets the opportunity to use the next card or effect.


There was a change in wording in the first quoted passage from the last version of the rulebook I have (LoB), which used the word "event" instead of "effect." I imagine that this was cleaned up for the improved V5 rulebook, but changed the way the game was "played."

To be fair, the current version of the rulebook's wording and it's effect on how the impulse moves doesn't violate the principal of least surprise like the old wording did. It works how people expect it to work.

That means if A wants to ensure that all Methuselahs decline to block they should ensure that they are asking in a way to indicate that. Either by using a general question, such as, "Are there any blocks?" or by explicitly asking each Methuselah "Do you block?" Otherwise, if the only person that A asks is their prey on a bleed action, there's a chance the someone can step in after a Conditioning is played.

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