Wake + timing effects

we have now two cards with such an effect, and it is more about the future design space, then fixing and immideatly proken combination.

Ankha wrote:

KoRneeshon wrote:

BTW, AFAIK there's no wake card that is playable during the "as a card is played" window - these cards are played later. So, if there's a reaction card that allows you to cancel another card as it is played, you cannot play any wakes before it to use it, as opportunity to play a wake shows up later, when the "as a card is played" window is already closed.

Wrong, see rulebook:

"ADVANCED RULES

Some effects can cancel a card “as it is played.” These effects, as well as wake effects, are the only effects allowed during the “as played” time period of another card. Even drawing to replace cards, comes after this time period."

Glad to learn something new, wasn't aware of this.

I don't think the problem is the power level of the card.

The problem will be to introduce to old and new players why you can do it. It's just counter intuitive and with no offense, a design failure. But VTES is complicated enough, one more rule won't matter much.

At least i'll have fun explaining this to my players

That wake-type cards can be played in the "as it is played" window has been in the rulebook since December 2008 and the rule nor the cards have any implicit or explicit requirement that they have to be tied to another effect... and similar to cancelation effects the wakes played in the "as it is played" window resolve before the effect of the card that is being woken for.

I don´t see anything to be broken, undermining another effect, or limiting design space...if we want to have cards that are not possible to wake to, or cancel it just needs to be written explicitly on the cards´ text

Rulebook_08-Dec wrote:

Some effects can cancel a card "as it is played". These effects (and effects that grant the ability to play them, like Forced Awakening) are the only effects allowed during the "as played" time period of another card. Even drawing to replace cards comes after this time period.

Rulebook_17-Apr wrote:

Some effects can cancel a card "as it is played." These effects as well as wake effects (see Special Terms, sec. 11) are the only effects allowed during the "as played" time period of another card. Even drawing to replace cards comes after this time period.

Rulebook_20-Nov wrote:

Some effects can cancel a card “as it is played.” These effects, as well as wake effects, are the only effects allowed during the “as played” time period of another card. Even drawing to replace cards, comes after this time period.

Still it is no clear what takes precedense. What exactly means "when it is played" ? It means that i Play blank card and if nobody reacts then text of the card becomes visible ? OR the efect is already there but another vampire can make it blank with playing for. e.g. Iron Heart ?

Acting player plays unleash. The whole card is played (for me that means also the effect). No still in the phase !as it is played" you can play reaction cards that does not go opposite of the wording of the card.

Rules says that "card text takes precedence to the rules". So the card text saying that the target vampire can not play reaction cards should be in effect. (that means the advaced wake rule should not apply) But another vampire can cancel the effect so it never took place. That is how it makes sense to me.

I would really like to see how is the correct order off trigering cards and text in this case.