Self-contest equipment after banishment
24 Aug 2024 08:38 - 24 Aug 2024 08:41 #112402
by Coyote
Okay. After rereading the rule, I have to agree with that argument. You are not being forced to put a contested card in play. You are voluntarily bringing it to play.
So I would say that you can't bring that vampire into play because you would voluntarily contest your ivory bow.
But let's see what Ankha says.
Replied by Coyote on topic Self-contest equipment after banishment
You cannot control more than one of the same unique card at a time, and you cannot voluntarily contest cards with yourself (if some effect would force you to contest a card with yourself, then you simply burn the incoming copy of the unique card).
Okay. After rereading the rule, I have to agree with that argument. You are not being forced to put a contested card in play. You are voluntarily bringing it to play.
So I would say that you can't bring that vampire into play because you would voluntarily contest your ivory bow.
But let's see what Ankha says.
Last edit: 24 Aug 2024 08:41 by Coyote.
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24 Aug 2024 18:19 - 24 Aug 2024 18:21 #112405
by Kilrauko
No, that rule prevents you from bringing out banished Arika while you control non banished Arika.
The Logic that you cannot self contest ivory bow because it is on banished vampire falls flat once you read what the card says and think it logically.
Cards and counters are out of play as long as the chosen vampire remains uncontrolled. Out of play means just that, they are effectively just like all the other cards you have in your collection at home with exception that they are staying with the vampire. And once you control the vampire they are, per the golden rule of cards, no longer out of play. You are not bringing them in, the Banishment is.
Influencing is the voluntary action. You do not influence ivory bow. Ivory bow coming back due to Banishment is not voluntary effect, if it was, the card text would reflect it with "... owner may choose to keep the cards and counters out of play."
Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
Replied by Kilrauko on topic Self-contest equipment after banishment
You cannot control more than one of the same unique card at a time, and you cannot voluntarily contest cards with yourself (if some effect would force you to contest a card with yourself, then you simply burn the incoming copy of the unique card).
Okay. After rereading the rule, I have to agree with that argument. You are not being forced to put a contested card in play. You are voluntarily bringing it to play.
So I would say that you can't bring that vampire into play because you would voluntarily contest your ivory bow.
But let's see what Ankha says.
No, that rule prevents you from bringing out banished Arika while you control non banished Arika.
The Logic that you cannot self contest ivory bow because it is on banished vampire falls flat once you read what the card says and think it logically.
Name: Banishment
[DS:U2, FN:PS, CE:PTo/PV, KMW:PAn2, LoB:PG, SP:PoS2, 25th:2, NB2:PBH1, 30th:2]
Cardtype: Political Action
Choose a ready younger vampire. Successful referendum means the chosen vampire is moved to the uncontrolled region (breaking any temporary control effects); any cards and counters on the chosen vampire stay with them but are out of play as long as the chosen vampire remains uncontrolled.
Artist: Steve Casper
Cards and counters are out of play as long as the chosen vampire remains uncontrolled. Out of play means just that, they are effectively just like all the other cards you have in your collection at home with exception that they are staying with the vampire. And once you control the vampire they are, per the golden rule of cards, no longer out of play. You are not bringing them in, the Banishment is.
Influencing is the voluntary action. You do not influence ivory bow. Ivory bow coming back due to Banishment is not voluntary effect, if it was, the card text would reflect it with "... owner may choose to keep the cards and counters out of play."
Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
Last edit: 24 Aug 2024 18:21 by Kilrauko. Reason: EDIT: Added " in your collection at home"
The following user(s) said Thank You: Lönkka, Oracle.kid
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24 Aug 2024 21:32 #112407
by Coyote
Replied by Coyote on topic Self-contest equipment after banishment
That's like telling the judge that I didn't voluntarily kill someone when I pushed them out of a ninth-story window. It was gravity.
Logical-wise, if you influence a vampire with a banishment, you're voluntarily going to bring back everything on them. On a block. Not by steps.
Rules-wise, on a RAW level, only voluntariness matters.
Logical-wise, if you influence a vampire with a banishment, you're voluntarily going to bring back everything on them. On a block. Not by steps.
Rules-wise, on a RAW level, only voluntariness matters.
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25 Aug 2024 06:16 #112410
by Lönkka
Replied by Lönkka on topic Self-contest equipment after banishment
I do not think the influencing is checking any of the items the (Banished) vampire may have. When it comes (back) into play, any items it had also do so and only then we start checking for Uniqueness.
Finnish
Politics!

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25 Aug 2024 13:00 - 25 Aug 2024 13:20 #112415
by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Self-contest equipment after banishment
The rules prevent you from voluntarily contesting something with yourself. Before the influence rule change, you could put enough blood on a vampire to reach their capacity, then let the mandatory effect bring out the vampire at the end of the round. Now, this is no longer possible due to the fact that putting the vampire in play is now a voluntary action taken during the influence phase.
The other ways to bring out a vampire voluntarily were Under Influence at [qui], Chain of Command, Eternal Mask (among other), and it has been made clear you cannot do it on vampires you control already.
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/G4eOS1uKwss/m/gmeUahxE_Q0J
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/0vdR3V8Rwck/m/wD2TYroHSzMJ
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/-k869Xz4rj8/m/keDevivx8UMJ
However, the case of unique cards on the vampire that would come in play has never been considered. It would make sense to prevent the vampire with the unique card on them to come back in play, but it would be an extremely stupid ruling game-wise (especially if people start playing Charnas and banishing your vampire so they can never come back).
So...
Option B. B1: the incoming copy on A is immediately burned and the copy on B stays in game.
I'll update the rulebook to clarify this => github.com/GiottoVerducci/rulebook2024/tree/self-contest-unique-cards-on-banished-vampire
The other ways to bring out a vampire voluntarily were Under Influence at [qui], Chain of Command, Eternal Mask (among other), and it has been made clear you cannot do it on vampires you control already.
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/G4eOS1uKwss/m/gmeUahxE_Q0J
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/0vdR3V8Rwck/m/wD2TYroHSzMJ
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/-k869Xz4rj8/m/keDevivx8UMJ
However, the case of unique cards on the vampire that would come in play has never been considered. It would make sense to prevent the vampire with the unique card on them to come back in play, but it would be an extremely stupid ruling game-wise (especially if people start playing Charnas and banishing your vampire so they can never come back).
So...
my vampire A is equipped with an Ivory Bow, then that vampire got a Banishment.
While vampire A is uncontrolled I play a second Ivory box with vampire B, as the Ivory bow is not "in play"
But I like my vampire A, so I influence vampire A back, and with that vampire it comes a second copy of Ivory bow
Options we have discussed in discord:
A -> you are not allowed to influence vampire A back as that would make a voluntary self-contest of the Ivory Bow
B-> you can influence vampire A, when it comes into play, the Ivory bow of vampire A burns automatically.
B1 -> In case B is the correct one, is the Ivory bow on vampire B out of the game till my next unlock phase as it was contested ? or the ivory bow on vampire B is still there ready to use?
Option B. B1: the incoming copy on A is immediately burned and the copy on B stays in game.
I'll update the rulebook to clarify this => github.com/GiottoVerducci/rulebook2024/tree/self-contest-unique-cards-on-banished-vampire
Last edit: 25 Aug 2024 13:20 by Ankha.
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01 Sep 2024 16:50 - 01 Sep 2024 16:56 #112487
by Coyote
Replied by Coyote on topic Self-contest equipment after banishment
@Ankha
Another case of self contest. This time with a title.
Player A has a vampire Tremere (or whatever non malkavian clan) Justicar
That vampire becomes Malkavian because of Derange and loses his title.
Player A gets another Tremere Justicar (in whatever way. Influencing, political action...)
Player A moves "Derange" from his first Tremere Justicar vampire to another vampire.
Now Player A has 2 Tremere Justicar.
I read the update to the rules to avoid self contesting in case of a vampire being re-influenced. I feel it is too narrow. And sure that more specific situations like this one can arise in the future with new cards.
By the way, I am not sure why the rule to avoid self contesting works like it works. Sure there is a reason. But I feel that it would be easier if you permit to self contesting. Adding the rule that "in case of contest, if you are contesting with your self, burn immediately the contested card most recent entered in play you control"
Is there anyway that I don't know that self contesting and burning self contested cards could be exploited?
Another case of self contest. This time with a title.
Player A has a vampire Tremere (or whatever non malkavian clan) Justicar
That vampire becomes Malkavian because of Derange and loses his title.
Player A gets another Tremere Justicar (in whatever way. Influencing, political action...)
Player A moves "Derange" from his first Tremere Justicar vampire to another vampire.
Now Player A has 2 Tremere Justicar.
I read the update to the rules to avoid self contesting in case of a vampire being re-influenced. I feel it is too narrow. And sure that more specific situations like this one can arise in the future with new cards.
By the way, I am not sure why the rule to avoid self contesting works like it works. Sure there is a reason. But I feel that it would be easier if you permit to self contesting. Adding the rule that "in case of contest, if you are contesting with your self, burn immediately the contested card most recent entered in play you control"
Is there anyway that I don't know that self contesting and burning self contested cards could be exploited?
Derange
Derange
This is a +1 stealth action.
Ⓓ Put this card on a younger vampire. The vampire with this card is considered to be the same clan and sect as the acting vampire. The vampire with this card does not unlock as normal. During his or her controller's unlock phase, he or she may burn 1 blood to unlock. The vampire with this card may move it to another vampire as a Ⓓ action. This card cannot be placed on a Malkavian or Malkavian antitribu.
This is a +1 stealth action.
Ⓓ Put this card on a younger vampire. The vampire with this card is considered to be the same clan and sect as the acting vampire. The vampire with this card does not unlock as normal. During his or her controller's unlock phase, he or she may burn 1 blood to unlock. The vampire with this card may move it to another vampire as a Ⓓ action. This card cannot be placed on a Malkavian or Malkavian antitribu.
Last edit: 01 Sep 2024 16:56 by Coyote.
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