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Karl Schrekt spoofing a Justicar title to play Camarilla's Iron Fist
10 Apr 2025 15:59 #114176
by Ankha
Q: Supposing that Karl Schrekt has changed sect (for instance, he is now Anarch), can he play Camarilla's Iron Fist as justicar?
Name: Karl Schrekt
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Tremere
Group: 6
Capacity: 10
Discipline: AUS DOM FOR PRE THA
Camarilla. 2 votes (titled): Karl can play cards requiring a justicar as if he were a justicar. +1 intercept.
Name: Camarilla's Iron Fist
[30th:5, V5:PL2]
Cardtype: Political Action
Cost: 1 blood
Requires a titled Camarilla vampire.
Choose a Methuselah and allocate 5 points among two or more other Methuselahs. Successful referendum means {each Methuselah burns 1 pool for each point allocated and the chosen Methuselah gains 1 pool.}
Name: Karl Schrekt
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Tremere
Group: 6
Capacity: 10
Discipline: AUS DOM FOR PRE THA
Camarilla. 2 votes (titled): Karl can play cards requiring a justicar as if he were a justicar. +1 intercept.
Name: Camarilla's Iron Fist
[30th:5, V5:PL2]
Cardtype: Political Action
Cost: 1 blood
Requires a titled Camarilla vampire.
Choose a Methuselah and allocate 5 points among two or more other Methuselahs. Successful referendum means {each Methuselah burns 1 pool for each point allocated and the chosen Methuselah gains 1 pool.}
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10 Apr 2025 16:00 - 10 Apr 2025 16:21 #114177
by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Karl Schrekt spoofing a Justicar title to play Camarilla's Iron Fist
A: No, because Camarilla's Iron Fist doesn't explictly require a Justicar.
In this case, the requirement for Camarilla's Iron Fist is an open list, so it doesn't work.
See also www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/82172-garibaldi-and-jericho-founding
The idea driving these rulings is the principle of least astonishment.
Mathematically, a card that "requires A" can meet the criteria "requires B" if and only if B is a superset of A (this means that all "A"s are in the set of "B"s).
Therefore, a card that "requires a prince or justicar" shouldn't qualify for an effect that works for cards that "requires a justicar", as "requires a justicar" is a subset, not a superset, of "requires a prince or justicar".
For instance, Karl shouldn't be able to play Parity Shift since it requires "a prince or justicar", and he can only spoof cards that require "a justicar".
Of course, this would be counter-intuitive to most players, violating the principle of least astonishment.
That's why, as an exception (by ruling), a card that "requires A or B" can meet the criteria "requires A".
This exception is only valid (by ruling) with "closed lists" (where the criteria is explicitly mentioned, such as "Requires a Prince or Justicar or Inner Circle") and not "open lists" (where the criteria is implicit, such as "Requires a titled Camarilla vampire").
For the rest, logic applies normally. For instance, a card that "requires a Baron" can meet the criteria "requires an Anarch" because all barons are Anarchs. (Anarchs is a superset of barons.)
In this case, the requirement for Camarilla's Iron Fist is an open list, so it doesn't work.
See also www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/82172-garibaldi-and-jericho-founding
Last edit: 10 Apr 2025 16:21 by Ankha.
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10 Apr 2025 16:13 #114178
by Ankha
Replied by Ankha on topic Karl Schrekt spoofing a Justicar title to play Camarilla's Iron Fist
This changes nothing about Vidal Jarbeaux for instance
"Vidal can meet the clan, sect, or non-infernal vampire trait (e.g., {Black Hand}) requirement to play any card. He can meet a given requirement only once each game."
1/ the card can have ANY clan, sect, or non-infernal vampire trait requirement. So cards with an open list requirement (such as "requires a titled vampire") can be chosen
2/ he can spoof any matching requirement (for instance, he can play it as a "prince of <pick a city>", which matches "requires a titled vampire"), as long as he hasn't already used it.
"Vidal can meet the clan, sect, or non-infernal vampire trait (e.g., {Black Hand}) requirement to play any card. He can meet a given requirement only once each game."
1/ the card can have ANY clan, sect, or non-infernal vampire trait requirement. So cards with an open list requirement (such as "requires a titled vampire") can be chosen
2/ he can spoof any matching requirement (for instance, he can play it as a "prince of <pick a city>", which matches "requires a titled vampire"), as long as he hasn't already used it.
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