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20 Dec 2019 13:40
Replied by Kraus on topic Relentless Reaper vs Blissful Agony and scheduled combat rulings ambiguity

Relentless Reaper vs Blissful Agony and scheduled combat rulings ambiguity

Category: Rules Questions

  • A combat cannot be queued if there is already a combat queued.
  • Effects that end combat and then do something else after combat (all in the single resolution of the effect) will fizzle if combat doesn't end or if a new combat is started.
  • Telepathic Tracking and Relentless Reaper replaces the end of a combat by a new round, so they don't count as "queuing up a new combat": they can be played if a Siren's Lure has queued a combat.
  • Psyche! is played when the combat is about to end to queue a new combat. It cannot be played if another combat is already queued (eg., Siren's Lure).
  • Telepathic Tracking and Relentless Reaper are played before Psyche! could be played, and since the combat is no longer ending, Psyche! cannot be played.

This is a very useful list, which I would appreciate was included as is in the General Rulings tab on VEKN.
20 Dec 2019 13:08 - 21 Dec 2019 20:38
Replied by Ankha on topic Relentless Reaper vs Blissful Agony and scheduled combat rulings ambiguity

Relentless Reaper vs Blissful Agony and scheduled combat rulings ambiguity

Category: Rules Questions

So, for clarity: we have the general rule "you cannot queue a combat if there's already a combat queued".

Correct.

So, Blissful Agony does not count as a queued combat, since it first ends combat and then does X (where X happens to be new combat)?

Blissful Agony DOES queue a combat, after the current combat ends, if nothing interrupts it.

Because of this, you can apparently play Relentless Reaper, Psyche!, Telepathic Tracking etc to continue combat or start a new combat (which cancels BA's combat).

Relentless Reaper, Telepathic Tracking and Psyche! interrupts the effect of Blissful Agony.
EDIT: you cannot play Psyche! because Blissful Agony's combat is a lingering effect, not something happening in the "resolution of the effect" (see below).
Since BA already queues a combat, Psyche! cannot queue a combat.
groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/GZI8NXQ76d0/cNf4G7ZGl1MJ

Siren's Lure *does* count as a queued combat

Correct.

, so you cannot play Reaper, Psyche, Telepathic Tracking etc after it has been played?

No, only Psyche! is forbidden. RR and TT don't queue any combat.

To sum it up:
  • A combat cannot be queued if there is already a combat queued.
  • Effects that end combat and then do something else after combat (all in the single resolution of the effect) will fizzle if combat doesn't end or if a new combat is started.
  • Telepathic Tracking and Relentless Reaper replaces the end of a combat by a new round, so they don't count as "queuing up a new combat": they can be played if a Siren's Lure has queued a combat.
  • Psyche! is played when the combat is about to end to queue a new combat. It cannot be played if another combat is already queued (eg., Siren's Lure, Blissful Agony).
  • Telepathic Tracking and Relentless Reaper are played before Psyche! could be played, and since the combat is no longer ending, Psyche! cannot be played.
20 Dec 2019 09:09 - 20 Dec 2019 09:10
Replied by PetriWessman on topic Relentless Reaper vs Blissful Agony and scheduled combat rulings ambiguity

Relentless Reaper vs Blissful Agony and scheduled combat rulings ambiguity

Category: Rules Questions

So, for clarity: we have the general rule "you cannot queue a combat if there's already a combat queued".

So, Blissful Agony does not count as a queued combat, since it first ends combat and then does X (where X happens to be new combat)? Because of this, you can apparently play Relentless Reaper, Psyche!, Telepathic Tracking etc to continue combat or start a new combat (which cancels BA's combat).

Siren's Lure *does* count as a queued combat, so you cannot play Reaper, Psyche, Telepathic Tracking etc after it has been played? Or are some of those legal play and some not?

I find this whole thing extremely confusing and hard to understand, tbh. :(

Some clear, unambiguous explanation of this would be very welcome.
19 Dec 2019 16:14
Replied by Ankha on topic Relentless Reaper vs Blissful Agony and scheduled combat rulings ambiguity

Relentless Reaper vs Blissful Agony and scheduled combat rulings ambiguity

Category: Rules Questions

Main question (happened two days ago in a casual game) :
After a minion schedules a combat by striking Blissful Agony at superior VAL, can the opposing player play Relentless Reaper at superior THN (assuming there's blood to burn to make use of the effect) to make the scheduled combat void?
Bonus: Can you play a Relentless Reaper after Psyche?

You can play Relentless Reaper. The Relentless Reaper continuation of the current combat prevents the new combat from ever happening.

You cannot play Relentless Reaper in response to Psyche! since the window for playing Psyche! is after the window for playing Relentless Reaper. "is about to end" is later than "would end".

Correct on both points.

Here is the general ruling from 2002, combat section:
An effect which would cause (a new) combat cannot be used if there is already a pending combat queued. [RTR 20020501]
Links to groups-beta.google.com/groups?selm=3CD0043D.410398C1%40white-wolf.com

What about that (a new) part? Is it reminder text? It it a clarification?

The rule is that you cannot queue a combat if there's already a combat queued. "(a new)" just means "even if the effect that would cause a combat happens during an already ongoing combat, we're not talking about the same combat".

Does causing combat include both Relentless Reaper and Telepathic Tracking, which technically extend an already existing combat, but could be said to cause more combat?

No. "causing" = "starting" here.

If you read the linked email from LSJ, the line preceding the quoted sentence at the ruling is about interrupting scheduled effects, and it gives equivalence to effects that extend combat (ie RR or TT) and those that shedule a new one (psyche, blissful agony, etc):

If an effect resolves and sets up an effect to be resolved later (e.g.,
Undead Persistence's torpor effect or Siren's Lure's combat), then the
effect will not be canceled by "interruptions" (extending combat/starting
combat/etc.).

Be careful, because if a Siren's Lure combat is queued, you cannot play a Psyche! during the first combat (groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/onifuBHTSbU/HUWYEcDaLDQJ).

The bolded part of the quoted text is what implies the equivalence.

Given this context, we return to the sentence of the ruling, to the question of why "(a new)" is in brackets. If (a new) means a mandatory condition, then it shouldn't be in brackets. We have two interpretations, as the ruling is currently written:

1) If the [RTR 20020501] is meant to cover only effects that schedule a new combat (Psyche, Blissful Agony, Marie-Pierre, Fast Reaction, etc) and their interactions with each other, removing brackets would remove the confusion.

"A new combat" doesn't mean much if there is no ongoing combat (eg. you cannot play Siren's Lure twice).

2) If the [RTR 20020501] covers all similar effects, including Relentless Reaper and Telepathic Tracking, I'd suggest adding an unambiguous addition to the ruling.
Perhaps rewording it into "Neither an effect which would cause a new combat, nor extend the existing combat can be used if there is already a pending combat queued." would work?

It doesn't, so moot.

There is no ruling in General Rulings or Card Rulings for Psyche, Blissful Agony, Telepathic Tracking nor Relentless Reaper that clarifies this case.

But, if you're Relentless enough, you can find a forum post by Pascal Bertrand, when Psyche's window of opportunity was changed:
www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/16788#16794
This is in 2011, and there are no rulings mentioning this, nor does the post reference any rulings itself (meaning that according to the tournament rulebook it has no bearing on the rules of the game until it becomes an official ruling - as per 2.1. of Tournament Rules) :

>what happens if the acting minion plays a Psyche, then the reacting plays Telepathic Tracking?

A new round of combat will happen (TT's "combat does not end"). Psyche!'s "start a new combat after this round" effect is lost (as much as Rotschreck's "send that vampire to torpor after combat has ended" is lost)


Is this 2011 post correct?

It is no longer correct. Psyche! and Telepathic Tracking now have different windows. You cannot play Telepathic Tracking once the "would end" window is closed. Psyche! is played in the "about to end" window, which occurs after.
I'll update that topic for easier reference.

That would mean that since Telepathic Tracking can void a scheduled combat by Psyche, it should also be able to void a scheduled combat by Blissful Agony, same with Relentless Reaper.

Moot.

Since the 2011 post talks about "as much as Rotschreck's", we can see that the Rötschreck ruling is in the very same email from LSJ - [RTR 20020501] (linked above) . There, it specifically is said:

Effects that end combat and then do something else after combat (all in the
single resolution of the effect) will fizzle if combat doesn't end or if a
new combat is started.

How can Psyche be beaten by Telepathic Tracking "as much as Rotschreck's" when there's no direct equivalence? Psyche is not an effect that ends combat and does something else after combat. Psyche resolves as it is played, and a new combat is scheduled (caused). Why can TT be played? Is it not covered by the original [RTR 20020501], about causing new combats?

Moot.

If Pascal's post is an active ruling, then general ruling [RTR 20020501] should be updated to not have brackets, as to leave room for Telepathic Tracking and Relentless Reaper (and other future cards with the same effect) to trump over already scheduled combats.
Also, Pascal's ruling of TT trumping Psyche should be included in the general rulings, allowing all combat continuation effects to trump over all new combat scheduling effects. Current rulings on Rötschreck and Psyche do not cover this exact case, unless by huge leaps of logic.

Moot.

If Pascal's 2011 post is not a ruling, but rather a misleading interpretation, then please consider rewording the general ruling about combat [RTR 20020501] to lose the ambiguity.
I have suggested "Neither an effect which would cause a new combat, nor extend the existing combat can be used if there is already a pending combat queued." but I am not a native speaker, and it might be put more eloquently without the ambiguity.

Moot (this is wrong, you can "extend" the combat).

Still, Blissful Agony is an effect that ends combat and then does something else after combat. Remember that LSJ email? That's the bit that didn't get written into any general rulings, but if it applies, Blissful Agony surely is covered by such a definition.

So... Can you play a Relentless Reaper after Blissful Agony?
Seems like yes, if the whole LSJ email applies in 2018, even while only parts of it are used for rulings.

Correct.

Or no, if the part about scheduled combats applies to RR.

Bonus: Can you play a Relentless Reaper after Psyche?
I would say no, but Pascal's post disagrees. Not yet an official ruling. Eager to find out the truth, and hopefully at least get a glimpse to the reasoning and the rulings that support it.

You cannot, it's too late.
19 Dec 2019 16:05
Replied by kombainas on topic Relentless Reaper vs Blissful Agony and scheduled combat rulings ambiguity

Relentless Reaper vs Blissful Agony and scheduled combat rulings ambiguity

Category: Rules Questions

Just to make sure, you are suggesting we have several windows for impulse, one for "is about to end", one for "would end" and also need to check anything at the end of round for "would end" and "is about to end" and have to go asking for that at each and every end multiple times rather than just one clean window just so card X would never precede card Y?

Dunno man, seems excessive and not solving any problems of balance or clarity.
19 Dec 2019 15:34
Replied by kschaefer on topic Relentless Reaper vs Blissful Agony and scheduled combat rulings ambiguity

Relentless Reaper vs Blissful Agony and scheduled combat rulings ambiguity

Category: Rules Questions

Main question (happened two days ago in a casual game) :
After a minion schedules a combat by striking Blissful Agony at superior VAL, can the opposing player play Relentless Reaper at superior THN (assuming there's blood to burn to make use of the effect) to make the scheduled combat void?
Bonus: Can you play a Relentless Reaper after Psyche?

You can play Relentless Reaper. The Relentless Reaper continuation of the current combat prevents the new combat from ever happening.

You cannot play Relentless Reaper in response to Psyche! since the window for playing Psyche! is after the window for playing Relentless Reaper. "is about to end" is later than "would end".
19 Dec 2019 09:54 - 19 Dec 2019 10:15
Relentless Reaper vs Blissful Agony and scheduled combat rulings ambiguity was created by Nauro

Relentless Reaper vs Blissful Agony and scheduled combat rulings ambiguity

Category: Rules Questions

Main question (happened two days ago in a casual game) :
After a minion schedules a combat by striking Blissful Agony at superior VAL, can the opposing player play Relentless Reaper at superior THN (assuming there's blood to burn to make use of the effect) to make the scheduled combat void?
Bonus: Can you play a Relentless Reaper after Psyche?

Were I judging a case like this in a tournament, I would rule that you can't play Relentless Reaper, because of the existing general ruling (combat section) [RTR 20020501], but that seems to be an incomplete answer.


I will explain what I mean by incomplete in a jiffy:

Here is the general ruling from 2002, combat section:
An effect which would cause (a new) combat cannot be used if there is already a pending combat queued. [RTR 20020501]
Links to groups-beta.google.com/groups?selm=3CD0043D.410398C1%40white-wolf.com

What about that (a new) part? Is it reminder text? It it a clarification? Does causing combat include both Relentless Reaper and Telepathic Tracking, which technically extend an already existing combat, but could be said to cause more combat?

If you read the linked email from LSJ, the line preceding the quoted sentence at the ruling is about interrupting scheduled effects, and it gives equivalence to effects that extend combat (ie RR or TT) and those that shedule a new one (psyche, blissful agony, etc):

If an effect resolves and sets up an effect to be resolved later (e.g.,
Undead Persistence's torpor effect or Siren's Lure's combat), then the
effect will not be canceled by "interruptions" (extending combat/starting
combat/etc.).


The bolded part of the quoted text is what implies the equivalence.

Given this context, we return to the sentence of the ruling, to the question of why "(a new)" is in brackets. If (a new) means a mandatory condition, then it shouldn't be in brackets. We have two interpretations, as the ruling is currently written:

1) If the [RTR 20020501] is meant to cover only effects that schedule a new combat (Psyche, Blissful Agony, Marie-Pierre, Fast Reaction, etc) and their interactions with each other, removing brackets would remove the confusion.

2) If the [RTR 20020501] covers all similar effects, including Relentless Reaper and Telepathic Tracking, I'd suggest adding an unambiguous addition to the ruling.
Perhaps rewording it into "Neither an effect which would cause a new combat, nor extend the existing combat can be used if there is already a pending combat queued." would work?

There is no ruling in General Rulings or Card Rulings for Psyche, Blissful Agony, Telepathic Tracking nor Relentless Reaper that clarifies this case.

But, if you're Relentless enough, you can find a forum post by Pascal Bertrand, when Psyche's window of opportunity was changed:
www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/16788#16794
This is in 2011, and there are no rulings mentioning this, nor does the post reference any rulings itself (meaning that according to the tournament rulebook it has no bearing on the rules of the game until it becomes an official ruling - as per 2.1. of Tournament Rules) :

>what happens if the acting minion plays a Psyche, then the reacting plays Telepathic Tracking?

A new round of combat will happen (TT's "combat does not end"). Psyche!'s "start a new combat after this round" effect is lost (as much as Rotschreck's "send that vampire to torpor after combat has ended" is lost)


Is this 2011 post correct?

That would mean that since Telepathic Tracking can void a scheduled combat by Psyche, it should also be able to void a scheduled combat by Blissful Agony, same with Relentless Reaper.

Since the 2011 post talks about "as much as Rotschreck's", we can see that the Rötschreck ruling is in the very same email from LSJ - [RTR 20020501] (linked above) . There, it specifically is said:

Effects that end combat and then do something else after combat (all in the
single resolution of the effect) will fizzle if combat doesn't end or if a
new combat is started.

How can Psyche be beaten by Telepathic Tracking "as much as Rotschreck's" when there's no direct equivalence? Psyche is not an effect that ends combat and does something else after combat. Psyche resolves as it is played, and a new combat is scheduled (caused). Why can TT be played? Is it not covered by the original [RTR 20020501], about causing new combats?

If Pascal's post is an active ruling, then general ruling [RTR 20020501] should be updated to not have brackets, as to leave room for Telepathic Tracking and Relentless Reaper (and other future cards with the same effect) to trump over already scheduled combats.
Also, Pascal's ruling of TT trumping Psyche should be included in the general rulings, allowing all combat continuation effects to trump over all new combat scheduling effects. Current rulings on Rötschreck and Psyche do not cover this exact case, unless by huge leaps of logic.

If Pascal's 2011 post is not a ruling, but rather a misleading interpretation, then please consider rewording the general ruling about combat [RTR 20020501] to lose the ambiguity.
I have suggested "Neither an effect which would cause a new combat, nor extend the existing combat can be used if there is already a pending combat queued." but I am not a native speaker, and it might be put more eloquently without the ambiguity.

Still, Blissful Agony is an effect that ends combat and then does something else after combat. Remember that LSJ email? That's the bit that didn't get written into any general rulings, but if it applies, Blissful Agony surely is covered by such a definition.

So... Can you play a Relentless Reaper after Blissful Agony?
Seems like yes, if the whole LSJ email applies in 2018, even while only parts of it are used for rulings. Or no, if the part about scheduled combats applies to RR.

Bonus: Can you play a Relentless Reaper after Psyche?
I would say no, but Pascal's post disagrees. Not yet an official ruling. Eager to find out the truth, and hopefully at least get a glimpse to the reasoning and the rulings that support it.

++++
CARD TEXTS
++++

Blissful Agony
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Valeren/Animalism
[ani] Strike: hand strike at +1 damage.
[val] Only usable at close range before strikes are chosen. Opposing minion takes 1 unpreventable damage during strike resolution each round this combat when the range is close. A vampire may play only one Blissful Agony at [val] each combat.
[VAL] Strike: combat ends. Choose a minion controlled by a Methuselah other than the opposing vampire's controller. The opposing vampire enters combat with that minion.

Relentless Reaper
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Thanatosis/Fortitude
[for] Prevent 1 damage.
[thn] Press.
[THN] Only usable if both combatants are still ready and combat would end. Instead, burn 1 blood to start a new round.

Identical wording as Relentress Reaper, so same ruling would apply.
Telepathic Tracking
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Auspex
[aus] Press, only usable to continue combat. If another round of combat occurs, this vampire gets 1 optional maneuver that round.
[AUS] Only usable {if} both combatants are still ready and combat would end. {Instead,} start a new round{}.

Mentioned as an effect that shedules a combat
Marie-Pierre
Name: 
[LK:2]
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Samedi
Group: 6
Capacity: 4
Discipline: for nec THN
Independent: Marie-Pierre can lock after a combat involving another Samedi you control to enter combat with the opposing minion. She cannot block older vampires.

Mentioned as an effect that schedules combat
Fast Reaction
Cardtype: Reaction
Discipline: Auspex
Only usable after a combat between a blocking minion you control other than this vampire and the acting minion.
[aus] Lock this vampire. This vampire enters combat with the acting minion. The first round of this new combat, the acting minion cannot strike.
[AUS] As above, with an optional press.

Mentioned in a relevant ruling:
Rötschreck
Cardtype: Master
Master: out-of-turn. Frenzy.
Put this card on a vampire when an opposing minion attempts to inflict aggravated damage on him or her, whether the damage would be successfully inflicted or not. Combat ends. This vampire is locked and sent to torpor. This vampire does not unlock as normal. During this vampire's next unlock phase, burn this card.

A combat card that schedules a combat:
Psyche!
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Celerity
[cel] Press.
[CEL] Only usable at the end of a round when both combatants are still ready and combat is about to end. After this round, begin another combat with the opposing minion.
25 Aug 2019 10:58
Replied by jamesatzephyr on topic Two Vampires BOTH play Blissful Agony

Two Vampires BOTH play Blissful Agony

Category: Rules Questions

My guess is that the second Blissful cannot be played since a combat is already queued.


Until they resolve, neither is queuing anything, so both can be played. (Coordinate Attacks and Psyche! resolve when played.)

Saulot gets blocked by Nahum Enosh. Both play Blissful Agony. Both name a 3rd player's vampire Conrad Adoula. How does this resolve?



[FZD 20120225]

Acting Methuselah decides which combat starts first. The other combat is lost in time and space.

25 Aug 2019 08:08
Replied by Boris The Blade on topic Two Vampires BOTH play Blissful Agony

Two Vampires BOTH play Blissful Agony

Category: Rules Questions

My guess is that the second Blissful cannot be played since a combat is already queued. There is already a similar ruling for Psyche! / Coordinate Attacks, and I don't see any reason not to apply it to strikes as well.

www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/12838-coordinate-attacks-vs-psyche
25 Aug 2019 04:42
Two Vampires BOTH play Blissful Agony was created by XZealot

Two Vampires BOTH play Blissful Agony

Category: Rules Questions

Saulot gets blocked by Nahum Enosh. Both play Blissful Agony. Both name a 3rd player's vampire Conrad Adoula. How does this resolve?
24 Jul 2019 11:09 - 24 Jul 2019 11:11
True Faith vs Infernals - allowed strikes? was created by Nauro

True Faith vs Infernals - allowed strikes?

Category: Rules Questions

Recent game has left me with questions about a minion with True Faith* master, who enters combat with an Infernal minion. I hope to get a definite answer here.

What does it mean that Infernal minions "cannot strike this minion" - couldn't find a ruling about it yet (looked the rulings list and searched these forums).

1) Does the prohibition cover all strikes?
(if YES, all further questions are answered as NO and can be left unanswered)

Assume the infernal minion is in combat with a vampire or ally with True Faith. Can the infernal minion's controller play/use these strikes:
2) Can the infernal minion strike to dodge?
3) Can the infernal minion strike to end combat?
4.0.) If 3 is yes, can the infernal minion strike to end combat AND inflict some effect at the minion with True Faith master?
4.1.) eg. Morphean Blow** at val or VAL - it puts the card on the opposing minion - can this be done?
4.2.) eg Blissful Agony*** at VAL (provided the True Faith minion is a vampire and is a valid target). Can it be played?
4.3.1) eg. Catatonic Fear**** at PRE at close range, a combat end that inflicts damage after combat. Can Catatonic Fear be played at close range?
4.3.1) eg. Catatonic Fear at PRE, but at long range (so no damage would be dealt to the True Faith minion). Can Catatonic Fear be played at long range?
5) Can strikes targeting retainers be played?
6) Can strikes stealing equipment be played?

Thanks in advance.

Card Texts:
*
Name: True Faith
[BL:R2]
Cardtype: Master
Cost: 1 pool
Unique master.
Put this card on a non-infernal mortal ally you control, or pay 2 pool to put this card on any non-infernal minion you control. Actions requiring Dominate [dom] or Presence [pre] cannot be directed at this minion. In combat, any damage this minion inflicts on an infernal minion is aggravated. [b]Infernal minions cannot[/b] block or [b]strike this minion[/b]. Burn this card if this minion becomes infernal.
Artist: Talon Dunning


**
Name: Morphean Blow
[HttB:C/B2]
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Valeren/Celerity
Only usable at close range.
[cel] Strike: combat ends.
[val] Strike: combat ends, and put this card on the opposing minion. The attached minion cannot act or block. Burn this card at the end of the turn.
[VAL] As [val] above, and if this vampire was blocked while performing a non-bleed action, the action continues as if unblocked.
Artist: Michael Gaydos

***
Name: Blissful Agony
[BL:R1, LoB:R, HttB:PSal]
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Valeren/Animalism
[ani] Strike: hand strike at +1 damage.
[val] Only usable at close range before strikes are chosen. Opposing minion takes 1 unpreventable damage during strike resolution each round this combat when the range is close. A vampire may play only one Blissful Agony at [val] each combat.
[VAL] Strike: combat ends. Choose a minion controlled by a Methuselah other than the opposing vampire's controller. The opposing vampire enters combat with that minion.
Artist: Becky Cloonan

****
Name: Catatonic Fear
[Sabbat:U, SW:U, FN:PS, CE:PTo, LoB:PI2, Third:U]
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Presence
[pre] Strike: combat ends.
[PRE] As above, and inflict 1 damage to the opposing minion once combat ends if the range is close.
Artist: Clint Langley
21 May 2019 23:16
Replied by kschaefer on topic Marthe Dizier clarificatiion

Marthe Dizier clarificatiion

Category: Rules Questions

First, here's the current card text:
Name: Psyche!
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Celerity
[cel] Press.
[CEL] Only usable at the end of a round when both combatants are still ready and combat is about to end. After this round, begin another combat with the opposing minion.

The superior will cancel any "continue action" effect produced during the preceding combat (e.g. Form of Mist) [RTR 19950509]

This has nothing to do with _when_ Psyche! is played. It merely clarifies the interaction of Psyche! and continue action effect.

The superior is played after combat ends, even though the card is a combat card. [RTR 19980928]

This ruling has been obviated by text change; it should probably be removed at this point.

Original text: Only usable at the end of a combat where both combatants are still ready. Combat starts again. This is considered an entirely new combat, so weapons can contribute their maneuvers for a second time, and so forth.

This meant combat had to end to play the card, so it was a combat card played outside of combat. Later versions of the card use the new text (above), which clearly specifies when the card can be play (at the end of a round of combat), which is during the combat before it ends.

Is played before superior Freak Drive or inferior Cats' Guidance can be played to untap one of the combatants. (The combatants will have to wait until after the next combat ends to play those cards.) [LSJ 19981216]

This ruling is not about when to play the card only when Action Modifiers may be played when combats are queued. The may be played after the queued combat resolves (if another combat is queue, you must continue to wait).

No new cost need be paid for the block (Archon, Aching Beauty, Donal, etc.) [TOM 19960303]

This is not a ruling about when Psyche! can be played. It is a clarification of block effects. There is no "new block" when Psyche! occurs, so those effects are not applied a second time.

The superior can be played before or after replacing any "Do Not Replace Until After Combat" cards. [LSJ 19990322]

This is no longer true due to text updates; it should probably be removed at this point.

Psyche! is now played during combat and "Do Not Replace Until After Combat" cards cannot be replaced before it is played.

Superior cannot be played if there is already a combat queued (with, for example, Blissful Agony) [RTR 20020501]

This is the general rule that only one combat may be queued at any given time.

So is the psyche used at superior still part of the combat that ended thus allowing Marthe to use her ability or part of the 2nd new combat?

It is part of the combat that ended.

Also, here's the LSJ ruling about the ability. I believe this was made even during the period of time where Psyche! was played after combat, but works because of ordering.

I haven't found a newer ruling and, if anything, because of the text change to Psyche! it's more clear now than before.

Would be great if Ankha could confirm that the outdated nature of those rulings (and possibly archive/remove them).
21 May 2019 22:48
Replied by blackday on topic Marthe Dizier clarificatiion

Marthe Dizier clarificatiion

Category: Rules Questions

This part of the card rulings for psyche is what us confusing.
Psyche!:

The superior will cancel any "continue action" effect produced during the preceding combat (e.g. Form of Mist) [RTR 19950509]
The superior is played after combat ends, even though the card is a combat card. [RTR 19980928]
Is played before superior Freak Drive or inferior Cats' Guidance can be played to untap one of the combatants. (The combatants will have to wait until after the next combat ends to play those cards.) [LSJ 19981216]
No new cost need be paid for the block (Archon, Aching Beauty, Donal, etc.) [TOM 19960303]
The superior can be played before or after replacing any "Do Not Replace Until After Combat" cards. [LSJ 19990322]
Superior cannot be played if there is already a combat queued (with, for example, Blissful Agony) [RTR 20020501]

So is the psyche used at superior still part of the combat that ended thus allowing Marthe to use her ability or part of the 2nd new combat?
28 Sep 2018 20:26 - 16 Oct 2018 13:55
Replied by Ankha on topic Questions about Marie-Pierre

Questions about Marie-Pierre

Category: Rules Questions

I have some questions about this new vampire and couldn't find anything about her when I searched the site so here are my questions.

She works the same way as a combat created by Blissful Agony for instance.

Question 1: Who is the acting minion when Marie-Pierre uses her ability? I have been playing as if she is the acting minion, but I'm pretty sure she isn't acting (and can't play action modifiers), she is just using her ability.

As LSJ said (groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/YHFQQjVJvms/dU-iNDIggpIJ) :

Neither is acting (for effects that refer to "acting minion"), but
standard sequencing rules apply (i.e., acting player, then blocking/
target player, then clockwise from the acting player).

groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/fdb5cf79f87e36b8

Question 2: What is the timing of her ability with respect to action modifiers (specifically freak drive)?

She enters combat before the acting minion can play Freak Drive. The acting minion can play Freak Drive at the end of the action, as usual.
groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/TUDO_4FwdyY/DWOwgQL850gJ

I'm pretty sure that Marie-Pierre is never acting when she uses her ability, so she can't play freak drive after the combat she entered with her ability.

Correct.

What if the acting Samedi successfully rushed and has Perfectionist? When do they gain the blood (not that it matters much, but just curious)?

Same window as Freak Drive.

Question 3: What about the timing of reaction cards? If Marie-Pierre isn't acting when she uses her ability, can the opposing minion play a reaction card like Obedience?

Not Obedience because Obedience works only against acting vampire (and Marie-Pierre isn't acting in that case).
If the opposing minion is not the acting minion, he could play reaction cards that apply.

Question 4: What about cards like Psyche or Telepathic Tracking? If my other Samedi was acting and combat ended with both combatants still ready, can I use Marie-Pierre's ability before the opposing minion can play Superior Psyche? I think not, but I'd appreciate a ruling.

Psyche! is played during combat, way before Marie-Pierre's ability can be used.

I may come up with other questions, but that's all I can think of for now. Marie-Pierre is lots of fun and I think she's a lovely vampire, but also kinda makes my head hurt. Thanks![/quote]
21 May 2018 18:29
Replied by Bloodartist on topic New round structure - OPTION B - we'd like your feedback!

New round structure - OPTION B - we'd like your feedback!

Category: Rules Questions

There are other cards played after range is determined, but before strikes are chosen, including

Thin Blood
Blood of Acid
Superior King of the Mountain
inf Blissful Agony


Just for thoroughness:
Death of my conscience
Sanguinary wind
Shame
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