Played some VTES with Paradox

self wrote:

except we want to have a positive relationship with the people who own the intellectual properties that we would be using. Going out and circumventing them in printing the game.., I believe the technical term is "a dick move." Even if you print it and have the company based in Russia, and Hasbro sues, no retailer where Hasbro has some kind of reach will sell your product.

Paradox are IP owners of VtES and their position was already stated.

Idea, that Hasbro got something in this game after their patents (quite arguable) expired is a boogieman myth.

elotar wrote:

Idea, that Hasbro got something in this game after their patents (quite arguable) expired is a boogieman myth.

Please could you explain, in detail, with evidence, how the expiry of a patent affects any possible intellectual property claims surrounding issues such as (but not limited to):

• copyright
• trademarks
• design rights
• derivative works
• passing off

Wherever possible, please present copies of the legally-valid documents you have in your possession that prove that Hasbro or WotC disposed of all intellectual property and good will to White Wolf/CCP (or, for that matter, any other third party).

It has literally never been the case that the only thing preventing a V:TES relaunch was the patent. Making claims about "boogiemen" does nothing to change that.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

How could elotar have such documents? Isn´t that (part of) the problem, that nobody knows anything about anything about what rights WotC still has, and WotC refuses to talk about it?

Elotar is correct about some important points:
- Wizards' patent has expired.
- If the card backs, discpline icons, card type icons, and (possibly) the original layouts and clan backgrounds were to be changed sufficiently, Wizards would have no copyright claim on them. "Look and feel" is a grey area with copyrights and mainly based on legal precedents. However, the look and feel of V:TES would ultimately be that of the World of Darkness. For layout changes, we can look to self biased's layout concepts. Ultimately, these changes are cosmetic and have no impact on game rules and compatibility.
- If the rulebook were to be sufficiently re-written (but still compatible), Wizards would have no copyright claim because game rules and mechanics are not copyrightable. The rulebook as a written document is copyrightable, so change how it's written.

Elotar is incorrect about two very important points:
- The legal threat from Wizards is not some imaginary boogeyman. It is real. Yes, Wizards wouldn't have any real claim provided the steps mentioned above are taken. However, that doesn't mean they won't sue anyway. Companies I have spoken with in regards to this have been through legal disputes with Wizards and have said they were painful enough that they represent a tangible risk with respect to publishing V:TES.
- The argument that Wizards wouldn't even notice or care if they did notice doesn't hold, either. Wizards didn't care one bit about Up Front and had no interest in publishing it until someone ran a Kickstarter to self-publish it. Now it's back in print due to a publishing deal made between Wizards and DriveThruCards.

What is probably needed is for Paradox to approach Wizards and say, "We're going to publish a new game called Vampire: the Eternal Struggle. We're going to use only our own intellectual property, eiliminating anything Wizards owns of the game. If this is an issue for you, please let us know. If you would prefer that the classic version of the game was published instead, and would like to discuss licensing, let us know, but understand that we're not waiting on you." Based on what Wizards' response (or non-response) is, Paradox could then go forward with licensing to a new publisher as would be appropriate.

I follow these type of discussions pretty closely:

Just an FYI to the discussion.
I found that in the Trademark Status and Document Retrieval System.
Vampire: the Eternal Struggle trademark belongs to the below owner:

WHITE WOLF PUBLISHING AB

Since Paradox now official owns white wolf publishing, Paradox in effect owns the trademark.

This trademark has been extended and is currently active.
Not sure posting the lawyers emails address and phone info is a good idea in this forum.
But that is available as well. I know this may appear obvious but it is full confirmation that the first step of getting VTES published has to legally go through Paradox.