Most Interesting Decks to Play

I don't agree with Izaak about wall decks. I'm from a meta that heavy intercept is a common thing, and what other ppl from other metas consider a wall, we consider that blocker, sometimes even toolbox (walls at us start from around 40 reaction cards).
I always found that amusing to play, maybe one of the most challenging deck types to play with, and even harder to win with it (especially with the "bare-bones" ones, like old tzimisce wall). People complaining about such decks because they hate to include enough stealth to overcome them.

I also really liked to play with the new baali crypt, and all the infernal-baali toys.
Also, generally block&bleed, bruise&bleed are the most enjoyable archetypes to me.

A !Ventrue grinder is not a toolbox deck. It's actually a very predictable deck that trades versatility for consistency. Which is why it's focused deck. The fact that it does three things very consistent doesn't make it a toolbox. You seem to be of the opinions that there are two options here: tunnelvision one trick ponies and toolboxes.

There is one inbetween. It's called a good deck.

Also Nana Buruku w/weenie Animalism

How is that a toolbox? You rush, you bleed and you produce the same goddamn two combat cards every freaking combat. It doesn't get much further away from toolbox than that. The deck runs like, what, 12 different cards?

Actually, I may be misreading Izaak's comments, but the 60% coherent plan, 40% not boring stuff is along the lines of what a toolbox deck should be, though not to say we are talking about the same things. He may be talking about 40% tech or side strategy that wouldn't make the deck any more versatile.

You could use the 40% for all sorts of funky tech and become a toolbox, sure. You could also use like 30% for meta considerations and the last 10% (5-6 cards) for stuff people don't expect because it's fun.

Like, I played this Tryphosa S/B deck at the EC in Warsaw. It's, ya know, Kindred Spirits + Stealth and 2nd Trad + Obedience plus a bunch of Deflections as usual. It's very focused. Not a toolbox at all.

What I did was add Parity Shifts because at the time titles were really unpopular so I figured they'd doubled as a big bleed that netted me pool in the process, basically resulting in a combined The Call / Bleed for 5 action. That was a metagame adjustment which does not at all make the deck more toolboxy because I was sure I could pass them (and, as turned out, I was right). It actually made the deck faster and less vulnerable to bounce. Mind you, had I turned out to be wrong I would have had a bunch of dead cards in my deck and curse myself for diluting my deck with useless tech.

Now, I *also* added Malkav Rider Clauses (because they're fun) and Far Mastery (because I like stealing War Ghouls). Both cards actually take away focus (and make the deck more toolboxy as a result) but I did that because I like doing unexpected stuff. Did they make the deck better? Absolutely not! In fact, I played 1 Rider Clause over the course of 4 rounds and the Far Mastery was always stuck in my hand when I drew it. If there would have been situations where those cards would have been useful, they would have been amazing, but what I would really have needed instead was Anarchist Uprising. If I'd have added two copies of that I would have won the EC and look like a genius, but instead I didn't and felt like an idiot with dead cards in my deck.

That's the thing with toolboxes. They have *many* of these situational cards and/or cards that only work in conjunction with another cards. There are always going to be dead cards in your deck because the situation where they are great doesn't come up. If you don't draw them, great. If you do... well.. it should have been a Govern instead.

Another example: having any number of Walk of Flames in your deck makes it more toolboxy, because you will need to play tech that gets you to round 2 in the first place as well, while you should just have played more Theft in those slots. Feels pretty stupid when Nephandus comes at you and you sit there with an Apportation in hand.

Toolbox = situational cards.

It trades the ability to adept for consistency and accepts the fact that they will be drawing dead and play with 6- or 5-card hands at times. I mean, they can be quite fun to play, I don't disagree there, but don't be delusional and think they are actually better too.

Unless of course, your definition of toolbox widely differs from mine. In which case we shouldn't be discussing this.

Izaak wrote:

A !Ventrue grinder is not a toolbox deck. It's actually a very predictable deck that trades versatility for consistency. Which is why it's focused deck. The fact that it does three things very consistent doesn't make it a toolbox. You seem to be of the opinions that there are two options here: tunnelvision one trick ponies and toolboxes.

There is one inbetween. It's called a good deck.

It seems more meaningful to define toolboxes as decks that can do two or more things. You could then further divide them into good toolboxes (!Ventrue grinder) and bad toolboxes (not !Ventrue grinder).

Izaak wrote:

Toolbox = situational cards.

Unless of course, your definition of toolbox widely differs from mine. In which case we shouldn't be discussing this.

Your definition certainly is much different. I believe most people see toolbox as meaning diverse, with the idea of increasing versatility. Aura Absorption isn't situational, it's versatile and helps to make more toolboxy Kiasyd decks.

The problem is that you introduced an assertion - "Toolbox decks suck" - that doesn't mean what most folks think you mean. What you are saying is that decks with a bunch of situational cards suck. It doesn't do discussion any good when terms are not consistently used.

I always saw (and played...) toolbox decks not as decks with lots of situational cards but able to do a little bit of everything without excelling in a particular field, thus being able to play whatever your opponent has worst defense to. Basically is a deck full of soft counters.

Examples of such decks other than the !ventrue almighty... had some success and lots of fun with !tor/tzi pre/aus/vic, a black hand deck with Al-Munthatir. IMO the key to a successful toolbox deck relies on the permanents you field and huge ammount of cards usable in more than one context

Well yes Izaak it does seem that the definition of toolbox is vastly different for you than to the rest of us. I see toolbox as something that can do more than one thing consistently. Stickmen is a textbook example of a toolbox deck in that it does three things, bleed, block, and combat. There are even versions (with regular ventrue) that can vote too.