file How I would relaunch V:TES (card reprint)

02 Mar 2016 18:42 #75666 by 1muflon1
I think that there is a much better fix for the govern than ban. Simply add "only usable once per turn at superior" - problem solved. (Also I think that the argument with bloating is not fully valid. It is actually very easy to block govern, just for some reason people dont do it, like it was some unwritten rule, seriously if you and your grand prey let govern pass unblocked at superior 5 times (as to get 15 additional pool as you mentioned) you are not doing something right in my opinion).

When it comes to deflection, I think a much better solution is to extend bounce to other disciplines. Some argue that this would kill diversity, but I think not, especially if it would not be node with non-discipline cards, but diverse discipline cards. Consider somethink like this:

"Sellout": serpentis.

Inferior, Only usable when you are being bled, after blocks are declined. Tap this reacting vampire. Choose another Methuselah other than the controller of the acting minion. The acting minion is now bleeding that Methuselah.

Superior: As above, but add one corrupiton counter on the bleeding vampire.

"counterstrike" potence.
inferior: strike: hand strike +2
superior: Choose another Methuselah other than the controller of the acting minion. The acting minion is now bleeding that Methuselah.

"lost in the forest: animalism (or protean)

inferior: Choose another Methuselah other than the controller of the acting minion. The acting minion is now bleeding that Methuselah.
superior: as above but bleeding minion takes 1 unpreventable damage.

Etc... you get the idea. Cards like these keep diversity while allowing other decks to bounce which would nerf a bit bleeding decks which are arguabley overprevalent.

Moreover, I think that Keepers of Tradition was so succesfull expansion, because it did lot of stuff like this, enabling other clans to do what they could not before, and makeing them more poverfull instead of bringing some decks down (with cards like torrent which is good for clans that dont have access to stealth).
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02 Mar 2016 20:41 #75674 by Brum

brettscho wrote:

jamesatzephyr wrote: But I think the game as a whole could be much more interesting if, say, Brujah weren't constantly tempted towards vampires with out-of-clan Dominate etc.


My thoughts exactly. Thanks for articulating this.


Thats because pure combat is farther from the winning condition of the game, than Bleed or Politics, per example.
I have a whole post about that ready to be released soon in a blog near you.
I try to make the case that combat in out of itself was not very well playtested in Jyhad and was given much more relevance than it should.
Somebody thought that just giving the option of combat to some clans would be good enough.
It clearly was not.

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02 Mar 2016 20:48 - 02 Mar 2016 20:50 #75675 by GreyB
I feel for empowering other disciplines/clans to compensate for the lack of a Govern or Deflection over banning as well. But don't feel there should be copy/paste cards with a twist, there are other options:

Alternatives for Deflection:
- poison pill for bleed actions
- more cards like Touch of Pain
- I liked the idea of spreading a bleed over multiple players
- Yawp Court for bleed (or Directed) actions.

Alternatives for Govern:
- A better Street Cred, add rush effect perhaps, remove younger vamp clause.
- Rush and burn 2 pool when rushed minion burns/torpors (perhaps with a "you cannot bleed this turn" clause).

Don't copy/paste what we deem powerful, empower other strategies ;) Otherwise we can just reduce all clans to 1 and only put 3 disciplines and nothing else into the game...

:garg: :VIS: :POT: :FOR: :flight: -1 Strength
Last edit: 02 Mar 2016 20:50 by GreyB.
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02 Mar 2016 22:34 - 02 Mar 2016 22:36 #75678 by Ankha

brettscho wrote: My biggest disagreement is Voter Captivation. Any effect without an upper limit is a problem, and this single card just produces too many tokens at once. And remember that it's the very definition of a win-more card. Bewitching Oration helps you pass votes, Voter Captivation says "Are you already winning (passing votes)? Well, here's something extra." It's also perplexing to me that players would be ok with an action modifer that is equally as good as the standard pool gain cards like Dark Mirror of the Mind and Art Scam. Don't want to take an action to gain pool? That's ok, we've created an action modifier that lets you do the same thing and gain blood too!

It's because it requires a *long* chain of events. You need to call a vote unblocked, have it passed, and have a lot of votes in favor.
In the meantime, many things can go wrong: you have a Voter Captivation but no vote to call (how many times this happened to me!). You finally manage to call your vote, but you're not the only one having votes, so people will probably vote against so it passes by 1 or 2 only. Or you have a Bewitching in hand, but that's so many moving parts (1 vote, some stealth, 1 Bewitching, 1 Voter Cap) that your hand has been crippled for 2 turns. Did I mention that your vampire was already full blood, so you basically gain 2 pool "only"?
Sometimes, everything will work as a charm. But most of time, something will go wrong. It's just like a turbo deck, works perfectly on the paper.
Oh, I didn't see that Delaying Tactics coming by the way...

brettscho wrote: Last few comments:

  • Heart of the City: I'm very surprised to see you discard it. Not only is it not wall paper, it fits your ethos of agressive bleeding. I'd reconsider this card.

It's barely more effective than a Tasha Morgan. You need a vampire with superior Presence, 2 blood, the kind of vampire who cannot afford losing one turn for such an action.
Pulse of the Canaille is very different as it gives extra bleed to Auspex which is poor in bleed bonuses. Plus the inferior effect is pretty strong too, contrary to Heart of the City.

brettscho wrote:

  • Empowering the Puppet King: I'm very surprised to see this, as I've never seen it played. Given that it's only a tiny bit better than Leverage, I think this card needs to be free in order to see play. Maybe if you shifted the +1 bleed for another minion to superior you could get rid of the blood cost. Perhaps make it like Cloak the Gathering - inferior for the minion using it, superior for any minion? I didn't even include this deck when I made a mummy bleed deck with dominate minions....
  • It's played in swarm decks with a slight Dominate angle, such as Nephandus, Nocturn or Shambling Hordes to a lesser extend... Not the best card, but it fits the aggressive theme.

    brettscho wrote:

  • Mind Rape: I'm very surprised to see such an abusive and universally hated card on your list. I'd highly advise against any effect that steals vampires, even temporarily. They create an unfun situation that should be avoided by a game.
  • This card is largely overrated in my opinion. Sure, if you manage to play Heidelberg Castle you may be able to steal some blood, but it rarely goes any further. Sometimes you'll manage to burn the vampire if you have the vote lock and someone happens to be in torpor (or you play Abactor) but if it were that easy, we'd see it more often.
    I think it's more a psychologic fear than a real problem.

    Prince of Paris, France
    Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
    Last edit: 02 Mar 2016 22:36 by Ankha.

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    03 Mar 2016 10:34 - 03 Mar 2016 10:38 #75687 by jamesatzephyr

    Brum wrote:

    brettscho wrote:

    jamesatzephyr wrote: But I think the game as a whole could be much more interesting if, say, Brujah weren't constantly tempted towards vampires with out-of-clan Dominate etc.


    My thoughts exactly. Thanks for articulating this.


    Thats because pure combat is farther from the winning condition of the game, than Bleed or Politics, per example.


    Not really the point I'm addressing - I could have picked pretty much any non-Dominate clan.

    Brujah don't have to play pure combat. Presence and their titles provide some good political options and bleed options, and Second Tradition provides a decent walling option. And yes you're probably going to toss some combat in - anything from some flung junk or some opportunistic Torn Signpost/Disarms, right through to 40+ red cards. And yet the Euro-Brujah (Constanza, Donal, Theo, Volker etc.) are still super-tempting, because of the Dominate. It would be nice if Dominate-less Brujah were similarly capable of crafting a solid deck like that, whether it uses 15 red cards or 50.

    See also, for example, Domi-Ravnos (not super-combaty, normally), a bunch of star vampire decks that surround themselves with Dominate weenies rather than any other weenies etc. It's not just combat-y decks that try to work out how to crowbar Dominate in there.

    And even to the extent that it is combat decks doing it (I won't deny that some of them try really hard), I still think there would be positives for the game if you could build much the same combat deck but without having to find the Dominate, instead finding something vaguely similar from in-clan discplines, in-clan cards, in-sect tech or whatever else. So you can put together that Big Fat Gangrel deck without Stanislava and Ingrid Rossler being quite so central for Domi-Protean.
    Last edit: 03 Mar 2016 10:38 by jamesatzephyr.

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    03 Mar 2016 11:48 #75690 by Brum

    jamesatzephyr wrote:

    Brum wrote:

    brettscho wrote:

    jamesatzephyr wrote: But I think the game as a whole could be much more interesting if, say, Brujah weren't constantly tempted towards vampires with out-of-clan Dominate etc.


    My thoughts exactly. Thanks for articulating this.


    Thats because pure combat is farther from the winning condition of the game, than Bleed or Politics, per example.


    Not really the point I'm addressing - I could have picked pretty much any non-Dominate clan.

    Brujah don't have to play pure combat. Presence and their titles provide some good political options and bleed options, and Second Tradition provides a decent walling option. And yes you're probably going to toss some combat in - anything from some flung junk or some opportunistic Torn Signpost/Disarms, right through to 40+ red cards. And yet the Euro-Brujah (Constanza, Donal, Theo, Volker etc.) are still super-tempting, because of the Dominate. It would be nice if Dominate-less Brujah were similarly capable of crafting a solid deck like that, whether it uses 15 red cards or 50.

    See also, for example, Domi-Ravnos (not super-combaty, normally), a bunch of star vampire decks that surround themselves with Dominate weenies rather than any other weenies etc. It's not just combat-y decks that try to work out how to crowbar Dominate in there.

    And even to the extent that it is combat decks doing it (I won't deny that some of them try really hard), I still think there would be positives for the game if you could build much the same combat deck but without having to find the Dominate, instead finding something vaguely similar from in-clan discplines, in-clan cards, in-sect tech or whatever else. So you can put together that Big Fat Gangrel deck without Stanislava and Ingrid Rossler being quite so central for Domi-Protean.


    My point is that Brujah tend to go for Dominate to compensate for how bad pure combat really is, both on offence and defense.
    Just using in clan disciplines is tricky, because politics needs either Deflections or Stealth (or both) to work.
    Bruise-Bleed is... playing in constant wishful thinking. Allot of things that you don't control need to happen in order for you to win the table.

    Big fat Gangrel without Dominate exist now.
    I think their lack of TWD exposure has nothing to do with not having Dominate.
    Not many people are trying new things.
    I think the deck is stronger than Nosferoyalties, actually.

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