file How I would relaunch V:TES (card reprint)

02 Mar 2016 15:04 #75653 by jamesatzephyr

Ankha wrote:

  • Force of Personality: another combat ends that makes vampires predominant against allies

  • I would probably drop this. It's not terrible, but I'd much rather see Perfect Paragon, I think. You note it's "redundant with Bewitching Oration". The negative intercept at superior is rather decent, though - Ventrue Law Firm gets a bit of 'stealth', Toreadors can equip guns or call votes with a bit of 'stealth etc. And while Obfuscate will almost certainly come out on top in any stealth cube, it would be nice to see a little bit of evasion from other disciplines too.

    Ankha wrote:

  • Aire of Elation: drop the Toreador specific part, drop the cost to 0 blood (= make it similar to Threats) to enforce the "bleed for cheap" component

  • I'd rather not change existing cards unless there's a compelling reason to do so. (Broken cards, rewrites required by a rules change or whatever.) There's nothing saying you can't create a Threats-equivalent, though.

    Bear in mind that Sabbat War, for example, was mostly a reprint set but included a scattering of new cards - making it a good way for new players to join the game, as well as an incentive for old players to buy a bit (and/or buy singles or trade). So I'd personally be perfectly happy to see one or two cards to reinforce a particular theme, stimulate something new, or whatever.
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    02 Mar 2016 15:04 #75654 by jamesatzephyr

    Brum wrote: Without Deflection, the million different types o bleed decks will become much more prevalent.


    Personally, rather than accepting that Deflection is necessary in the game, I'd rather see good bleed defence - including bounce - spread to other disciplines (or sects/titles etc.) so you can still create a solid deck but without having to think "And how do I work Dominate into this deck?"

    I think I've used the example of Serpentis-bounce in the past. Instead of thinking "How do I work Dominate into this Setite deck?", you might have a Serpentis card (or a Ser+Obf or Ser+Pre card) that gave you bounce. And it might be weaker than Deflection or Telepathic Misdirection, or slightly different, in terms of raw power. But it might actually work better for you because you can have a more diverse crypt, or use vampires who you'd ordinarily overlook in the hunt for Dominate. So you might have a card like:
    Card Name
    Reaction
    Serpentis
    Play this card after blocks are declined.
    [ser] Reduce a bleed against you by 1 blood.
    [SER] As [ser] above, and tap this reacting vampire. This vampire burns a blood to choose another Methuselah other than the acting minion's controller. The acting minion is now bleeding that Methuselah (and the blocking window re-opens).

    So, probably worse than Deflection in terms of raw power (you bounce a bleed, but it's reduced by 1), but possibly still worthwhile overall.

    Given Ophidian Gaze, I possibly wouldn't print a card like this now, it's just the sort of idea I've had lurking in my brain in the past.

    You wouldn't necessarily have to restrict it to disciplines - other traits might be a good target. Say, a Black Hand bleed defence card - give a Black Hand vampire +1 intercept against a bleed action, and an alternate use for a Black Hand Seraph as a bounce (who could take the +1 intercept instead if they chose).

    You get the idea, anyway.

    You'd want to think carefully about where you targetted the bounce, and how you tweaked it or didn't tweak it, so different decks still keep different flavour. And you might want to think about other good bleed defences anyway that aren't bounce too. But I think the game as a whole could be much more interesting if, say, Brujah weren't constantly tempted towards vampires with out-of-clan Dominate etc.
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    02 Mar 2016 15:23 #75656 by 2wayspeaker
    For example yes.

    As long as it is tied to a discipline or trait. Vtes needs to be that puzzle that never fits. It's an important part of the deck building.

    I agree with the other comment that with Target Vitals there's little value in playing stuff like torn signpost or starvation of Marena when you can equip with a zip gun and throw target vitals continuously.

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    02 Mar 2016 15:50 - 02 Mar 2016 15:53 #75657 by Ankha

    2wayspeaker wrote: 1) No, govern is an accelerator.

    3 extra influence of which 2 come from the blood bank.

    I have the same issue with you choosing Legal Manipulations over Public Trust. The card you should want to have in the game is Public Trust because it accelerates the game. (Turns blood on a vampire into a transfer/influence)

    Dropping Govern from the list for dominate slows down the deck.

    2) Govern is fine, that's 2 pool a turn. That's not slowing down any decent predator. Weenie auspex wall with 6 blood dolls hunting is far worse. Voter cap on it's own is fine, but 3 minions playing voter cap and combined with Villein (2+2+2+6) is broken, especially if the vote is a con boon. (2+3+2+3+2+3+6)

    No one can abuse bloating with govern. It's limited to 2(3) pool a turn, if you can't get past that you should seriously consider if your strategy is even worth it at all.


    I see it differently. You say it's an accelerator. Indeed, but an accelerator of you bringing out vampires, not an accelerator of the game. You'll have more minions for which you pay less pool. Consider a game where each player controls 10 minions. Is it faster than a game where each player has 2 minions? No.
    If you manage for instance to play 5 Govern at superior in a game (which is more reasonable than a turn where 3 vampires would play vote and Voter Captivation), it's a gain of 15 pool you don't spend on vampires.
    That means you have more pool, more minions, making the game slower.

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    Last edit: 02 Mar 2016 15:53 by Ankha.

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    02 Mar 2016 18:10 - 02 Mar 2016 18:11 #75661 by brettscho
    Some nice thoughts, although I notice that most of what you are doing is "trimming the fat" so to speak - discarding cards that see almost no play. I'm much more interested when you talk about staple cards that need to be modified or discarded.

    My biggest disagreement is Voter Captivation. Any effect without an upper limit is a problem, and this single card just produces too many tokens at once. And remember that it's the very definition of a win-more card. Bewitching Oration helps you pass votes, Voter Captivation says "Are you already winning (passing votes)? Well, here's something extra." It's also perplexing to me that players would be ok with an action modifer that is equally as good as the standard pool gain cards like Dark Mirror of the Mind and Art Scam. Don't want to take an action to gain pool? That's ok, we've created an action modifier that lets you do the same thing and gain blood too!

    Now I do agree that Presence should be the king of politics, but surely they don't need this hugely broken insanely powerful bloating card to make it worth their while. You could provide them stealth and/or intercept for political actions, powerful cards to block votes (delaying tactics should likely be a Presence card, and Poison Pill should be the disciplineless vote defense). If a card like Voter Cap really needs to be in the game, it should be limited, perhaps like this:

    Play after a successful referendum
    <inf> This vampire gains 2 blood.
    <sup> You gain 1 pool.


    I also think that Bewitching Oration should be changed to be an action modifier or reaction. Gaining temporary votes is a very interesting defense against politics, and it's sad that it never sees any play.

    Last few comments:
    • Heart of the City: I'm very surprised to see you discard it. Not only is it not wall paper, it fits your ethos of agressive bleeding. I'd reconsider this card.

    • Empowering the Puppet King: I'm very surprised to see this, as I've never seen it played. Given that it's only a tiny bit better than Leverage, I think this card needs to be free in order to see play. Maybe if you shifted the +1 bleed for another minion to superior you could get rid of the blood cost. Perhaps make it like Cloak the Gathering - inferior for the minion using it, superior for any minion? I didn't even include this deck when I made a mummy bleed deck with dominate minions....

    • Mind Rape: I'm very surprised to see such an abusive and universally hated card on your list. I'd highly advise against any effect that steals vampires, even temporarily. They create an unfun situation that should be avoided by a game.

    Otherwise, interesting thoughts. Looking forward to what else you have to say!

    Check out my VTES blog: Gaming with BS

    I also host a google doc which separates the TWDA into clans . That means I track how often clans win, which crypt groups get used, and how many people attend events. You can access all of that info here:
    Last edit: 02 Mar 2016 18:11 by brettscho.

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    02 Mar 2016 18:14 #75662 by brettscho

    jamesatzephyr wrote: But I think the game as a whole could be much more interesting if, say, Brujah weren't constantly tempted towards vampires with out-of-clan Dominate etc.


    My thoughts exactly. Thanks for articulating this.

    Check out my VTES blog: Gaming with BS

    I also host a google doc which separates the TWDA into clans . That means I track how often clans win, which crypt groups get used, and how many people attend events. You can access all of that info here:

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