exclamation-circle A SAD TIME FOR VTES PLAYERS IN BRAZIL

28 May 2018 05:15 - 28 May 2018 16:15 #87581 by Sydnelson
Well seems this topic was created to talk about the lasts events in Brazilian Facebook groups and one of his causers Anderson Garcia, VEKN nickname Desso Alastor.

Ben Peal contact me over messenger and ask about that. Look to the conversation (I just correct some bad typos, English errors and explain better few points):

Ben Peal
What the everliving fuck is going on over there?

Me
Well for years, we have problems with one guy called Desso.
This week the problem take a big proportion and our current CN start to take measures.

Ben Peal
What kind of problem?

Me
He argued with more than half of the organizers of Brazil, the way he imagines that the vtes might be better is divergent from that of the other members of the National Coordination, including I already talk about this behavior with Gines in a dinner during EC 2017 in Berlin. Moreover, he as creator and moderator of almost all groups in Facebook became totalitarian banning members and censoring posts against his politics.
The National Coordinator tired of this type of practice decided to create new lists with new moderators.
In addition, the players of São Paulo (where Desso is the prince) began a movement of separation creating parallel events and plating a new prince. Even the former National Coordinator Roberto Mautone is in this group.

Ben Peal
I'm also hearing stories about players being physically abusive/threatening at tournaments.
As well as players being drunk or on drugs at tournaments.

Me
It occurred during the SAC / BR 2018 in São Paulo organized by Desso, two problems relating abuse, possible aggression and bullying. But in those cases, Desso was not to blame.

About drinks, here in Brazil and by the photos I see from worldwide, it is common for people to play and drink during the events.
During the SAC / BR a player who has a problem of alcoholism lost his head and verbally assaulted the judge and threatened him. In this case, it is an isolated case on account of a person who has problems with alcoholism.
About drugs, here in Brazil there are many players who use marijuana and other drugs, but I in 23 years of VTES have never seen anyone using drugs during tournaments or even at the tables for fun. They leave the play area to use their stuff and then back to play. The complaint was related to the odor of marijuana that some players were during the SAC / BR. What caused this complaint was not the use of drugs itself since it is unfortunately common, but the place where the event was held because it had no windows or ventilation making the odors more perceptible.

The second problem during the event was a case of bullying from one player to another. The bullying did not occur during the tournaments, but outside the tables, it was a very uncomfortable and annoying thing that caused even the VEKN player's banishment after complaints from people who were embarrassed by the case.

Ben Peal
Ok, so the issues there are overblown, except for one alcoholic guy who was a problem.

Me
These two cases were maximized due to Desso's bad reputation among the players community.
With this, people who hate him increase, distort, and make up facts about the situation.

I have much to criticize Desso and his conduct, but in these two cases that occurred, he was not to blame and was caught to be a Christ (I do not know if this metaphor works in English).


Ben Peal
But I'm hearing stories about altered Archon files.

Me
About this history of manipulation of archon is something recurrent according to the players of São Paulo, it seems that it has been common some results to be sent wrong favoring players closer to the prince. However, this is something that the SP players who have witnessed such conduct.


END of CONVERSATION


What I can talk about this person? Well I have known Desso for more than 10 years and I can say that for a long time he was my personal friend, but due to certain attitudes of him or simply divergence of ideas our friendship has been diminished and nowadays we are only colleagues. In the VTES part what problems I had with him and want to report to VEKN? Here is the list of those I remember for now:

I've already had problems with the Desso regarding the sale of prizes that should be distributed free during the tournaments. I even complained to VEKN about it in the past.

I have already been accused by him of organizing a coup against the former National Coordinator and his personal friend Roberto Mautone (who nowadays does not even talk to Desso because of a personal fight).

He already had a problem with one of the princes of my city, Rio de Janeiro where at the time of choosing cities to hold the Brazilian Championship 2015 (or 2014, don’t remember now), in the last hour the result was manipulated giving victory to his city São Paulo.

He had problems with several princes in Brazil doing some of them including giving up their positions.

He was suspected of passing privileged information about the archon during SAC 2017 to his wife with potential to influence the results. In that same event, some players also reported that they heard him and other players from his city matching a possible partnership in the final.

In addition, just as I had all these problems with these people (among others I do not remember now) several other people had the same kind of annoyance.

Fernando Cesar - Sydnelson
LackeyCCG and OCTGN VtES Mantainer


:adv: :camarilla: :vent: :obf: :pro: :tha: :DOM: :PRE: :cap8:
Prince of Rio de Janeiro

Powerbase Rio de Janeiro
Last edit: 28 May 2018 16:15 by Sydnelson.
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28 May 2018 10:54 #87595 by Brum
Hi Sydnelson,

thank you for your testimony.
For some reason, portuguese speaking countries are like that.
Some people use VtES as a way of expanding their own weaknesses and insecurities.

If people like Desso exist in a hobby that is heavily dependent on volunteers and community behavior, why does he have a following?
Why doesn't the brazilian community as a whole set him aside?

For evil to exist all there is needed is for good men to do nothing.

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28 May 2018 16:14 #87616 by skimflux
I don't have any concrete information on what is occuring in Brazil - only rumours and hear-say, so I will refrain from commenting on the current situation and complaints. I feel like I should give some generic advice though, because each of us may at some time be faced with conflicts and issues between players and groups.

First: the causes of these issues exist pretty much everywhere, but (probably) due to cultural dispositions and lack of good conflict de-escalation skills they become more serious in some groups.

In that sense I would urge everybody to keep a cool head and gather all available information before making any decisions - too often I've seen people jump to conclusions and make rash judgements based on incomplete or wrong information. This will often cause problems to worsen.

On the other hand, you need to speak up (preferably with facts, not opinions!) before issues escalate out of hand! I've heard complaints against decisions made weeks or months after the fact, when the person could have easily presented his argument at the time and avoided the issue in the first place. This has gone so far as people complaining loudly months later about a judge not intervening to correct an error that was never presented to the judge in the first place (for example).

And always remember that everybody is a hero in their own mind - hardly anybody ever sets out to be the bad guy, so if they are acting in a certain way it is most likely because they believe that to be the best course of action. If you want them to act differently you need to present your arguments factually and in a respectful manner - arguing and blocking dissenting views will usually only serve to antagonize people, even if the argument is solid. Here's the kicker: the same thing applies to you, so it is quite possible that others feel slighted by your actions and take you to be the villain of the situation.

Finally: VEKN is a global player-led organization led in a democratic manner. In these conditions lack of information (at all levels) is probably the biggest cause of problems and conflicts, so please speak up!

Thank you.
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28 May 2018 17:45 #87622 by Brum
Anyone with half a brain and half a spine would agree with your wise (and experienced) words.
But to put them in practice requires the other half of the spine.
And there is the issue.
Having the nice morals in words only, doesn't really solve anything.

Back when I played VtES in Portugal, we had a Brazilian player in Lisbon for a year (doing a Post Doc in Law, I think).
He told us tales of woe and misery in the community back home.
Also tales of Brazil being banned from international sellers because of several people buying cards without paying.
When we asked about what they were thinking on doing to solve this, he shrugged.
It is too much trouble and responsibility over a game.
This is not a job. It does not operate under employer / employee rules.

I understood those words years later.

A community is what its members in general want.
That is why I asked those questions to Sydnelson.

I talk almost everyday with players from all over the world.
Culture is truly a factor here. Maybe the most important one.

At the end of the day, this can only be solved by the Brazilian Community.
Because here, it's all He Said - She Said.
What is VEKN to do? Expel people? Nominate new Princes or a new NC, if he doesn't act?.
That would probably create more attrition or at the very least just split the community and nobody would learn anything.

Obi-Wan and Yoda could've killed the Emperor together.
They went into hiding because the Galaxy itself gave Palpatine his power.
The Galaxy should result the problem it allowed to create.

From a certain point of view. :)

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28 May 2018 17:51 - 28 May 2018 20:02 #87623 by KzArashi

skimflux wrote: VEKN is a global player-led organization led in a democratic manner. In these conditions lack of information (at all levels) is probably the biggest cause of problems and conflicts, so please speak up!


I totally agree with you that the lack of information prevented the VEKN from take any action. And this our brazilian faut only. As, I mentioned on the first post of that thread.
The excerpt follows:

KzArashi wrote: Well, things become so troublesome because the majority of brazilian players believed throughout the years that what matters was to play and have fun. So no one got preoccupied ro report bad behaviors to the VEKN (Vampire Elder Kindred Network - The World Wide Players Organization). They believed that time would resolve everything.


skimflux wrote: On the other hand, you need to speak up (preferably with facts, not opinions!) before issues escalate out of hand! I've heard complaints against decisions made weeks or months after the fact, when the person could have easily presented his argument at the time and avoided the issue in the first place. This has gone so far as people complaining loudly months later about a judge not intervening to correct an error that was never presented to the judge in the first place (for example).


skimflux, people complained about the problems and actions with the person in question (Anderson Garcia, also know as: Desso Alastor), multiple times. Every time, people complained in the moment the facts and actions occurred. And as no solution or arrangements to take solutions were made, the complaining continued through time.
And worse. Because when an action were take, that was only to benefit the person (the Prince that is the center of that mess, Desso Alastor) or his wife and close friends.
Things have escalated through the years.

Sydnelson wrote: ...he as creator and moderator of almost all groups in Facebook became totalitarian banning members and censoring posts against his politics.


Most of the times people tried to move any solution to the Prince of São Paulo actions, that and other peoples got censored or banned from the facebook groups.
In the past, thought machinations, even some Prince have his register revoked. In some cases, former Prince resigned choosing to preserve his personal lifes from so much headaches interacting whit such people could cause.
In some ways the São Paulo Prince (Desso Alastor) got to become close friend with some of the former National Coordinator. And Almost every one in the brazilian VTES community believe that decisions were influenced multiple times in the past.


To believe or not to believe?
Like Mr. Ben Peal you could reach as many player you can as ask him. That because much of them will not come here afraid of retaliation. As I said before, We are working to change some mentality to try not commit the same mistakes again.

Priest of Rio de Janeiro
:sabbat: !malk! :cel: :obt: :AUS: :OBF: :DEM: :cap7:

My blog: Portal Distant Kingdoms
Facebook: Distant Kingdoms
Youtube: Distant Shore
Last edit: 28 May 2018 20:02 by KzArashi.
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28 May 2018 19:37 #87629 by Charles_Bronson
Well, while i’m no longer a prince I can help a lot explaining everything, even my small and unimportant drama in those facts.

Brazil is a country of continental proportions. Most of our playgroups are isolated. Thousand of kilometers separate the regions (north, northeast, center-west, center-east, and south).
When I joined VEKN as a prince of maceio, a small city in the northeast region, more than a decade ago, it was a great opportunity for players all around the globe to find me and my small and humble playgroup to play vtes, get out in the night and find new blood easier. After all more players = more fun.

I was soon contacted by fabio sooner, one of the best VEKN national coordinators i’ve ever seen around, and got in contact with other princes of other regions. In that decade (around 2002, not sure), I noticed something strange around the discussions on the maillist.

They were bickering and fighting.

Soon I discovered that every year, there were two events (South américa championship – SAC and national championship) that are organized by the princes. At that time, the princes decided who would organize those events with the mediation of Fabio sooner.

Why they fighted for it? Because we are a big country. If the SAC was organized in Rio, and the SAC in SP in the same year, everyone from center-west, South, north and northwest would have to travel thousands of miles to attend them. And to almost all of them, they could attend only one of them.

The choice used to be make by the voting princes registered on VEKN. Each prince had a vote, and could vote on one proposal of a prince. Usually, every year, at least one of the events were always in the southeast region (SP/RJ), because they had the highest number of players.

The voting was starting to become problematic, because some cities have more than one prince (São Paulo as a metropolis is composed of several sattelite cities), even some persons who registered as a prince on VEKN only to gain a vote – their playgroup were entirely on other cities).

What all of this have to do with our situation with Anderson Garcia? I’ll get there soon.

After some princes of distant regions like Manaus (north), maceió and fortaleza (northeast) start to become more active and travel to those events, the problem grew bigger. Sao Paulo was hosting too many events and the princes were more ressentful than ever.

After electing Roberto Mautone as NC of Brazil, things seemed to be doing better at the time. I proposed a statute for voting princes, prohibiting the same city from being elected twice in a row, and even opened the discussion on making organizers giving a small discount on players from other regions (to help with travel costs).

]That proposal enraged Anderson Garcia, who organized events in São Paulo. Apparently those events were very importante for him. Why? I will explain soon. He contacted several of players from my playgroup privately on facebook Messenger, asking about me, how were the events organized by me, if there was something wrong. He asked many of them if they would like to become prince instead of me.

All of them rebutted him, saying that I was a good prince, etc. But he discovered something truly horrifying about me, something dark, unforgivable and terrible. He discovered I organized casual events. In other terms, i didn’t reported nothing to VEKN, as there wasnt any tourneaments, only tables “for fun”.

After obviously alienating the NC Roberto Mautone opinion about me, Anderson Garcia soon started questioning me asking in public why didn’t organized any events for years. As a tried to explain that we usually don’t play tourneaments, the NC started criticizing me openly and harshly, saying I “spoked too much and did nothing”. Also he asked me to resign as a prince, saying anyone else “could do better”.

I becomed annoyed and retaliated, saying he didn’t had any transparency, didn’t tell or asked nothing what we think about the tourneament proxies discussion that was occurring on VEKN, and I asked when he was gonna tell us anything about his vote on the VEKN.

Obviously Anderson Garcia was also in the discussion, on the facebook list of princes, going for personal attacks, calling me a “prince of shit”, saying “I didn’t make shit for the game”, and saying I was a “small penis prince and will always be”.

When I noticed that I was emotionally crushed by the bullying, that was enough for me. I quitted and stopping organizing events. They both quickly find someone else to be prince of maceio (a friend of mine, vinicius correia). I ostracized myself from all the national groups and just kept playing with my friends again

I would like a moment to thank all of princes and players who witnessed the discussion and PM me asking to stay, saying Anderson Garcia was not a good person, and I needed to fight him with support of them. Your support truly helped me feel better.

Soon after that, Roberto Mautone, enticed by Anderson Garcia, culled all the princes from
Brazil who did not organized sanctioned events on VEKN from vote (including vinicius correia and many opposition). Soon after, after losing a vote, he simply declared that HE would host the events and choose the áreas according how he saw better from everyone.
Obviously with the help of Anderson Garcia. Afterall, the two of them lives in Sao Paulo.

But why Anderson Garcia did all of that?

Money and ego.

It’s all about Money and ego. Anderson Garcia loves to be the center of attention, loves the prestige of being a IC member, loves to have a say in everything. In his events, stuff are expensive. Food is scarce and hard to obtain (except from him) and staying fees are expensive. In some of them, they were pretty isolated places, making impossible to make “day use” or “go out to buy food”.

He bought several of the few sabbat war packs from the VEKN store at the time, “schusser & something” (SORRY, I DON’T REMEMBER THE NAME). Those kits were advertised strictly to be used as prizes for tourneaments, but Anderson Garcia just put them on the sale on the facebook group for expensive prices. Me and Sydnelson notified VEKN of that, who did nothing and just sayed that organizers can do anything they want with those kits.

About lies? He lobbied hard against liberating proxies, even bullying me saying that I was lying just for saying that those things were being discussed at the VEKN, and that VEKN assured that proxies will never be a yes in any VTES tourneament. All against the facts.

With the passage of years, he kept alienating and bullying opposing princes. Some obstinately resisted, some of them also resigned. When we saw Anderson Garcia announcement as a IC member, all the majority of players of brazil found that ridiculous and asked themselves “what the hell are the vekn thinking?”.

After some years, something that I never thinked could happen happened. Roberto Mautone, a longtime friend of Anderson Garcie, broke up their friendship and created a new “free” facebook group. Why free? Because during years on the Anderson Garcia group, any critic of him was banned and had his comments deleted.

Why he broke up with him? I don’t know, but I think it had something to do when Anderson Garcia was trying to monopolize the anthologies kits. How can I prove it? He SUGGESTED a player who was trying to collectively kickstart several kits for his city that “the kits will only arrive if he authorized it”. That player dennounced this on the facebook group, and he was promptly banned.

That was the last straw for almost everyone on brazil.

Finally, kaze is correct. If we dont make our voice here, everyone overseas will think Anderson Garcia is the greatest organizer alive. Afterall, he have several sanctioned events.

And I’m here, speaking this, not because I have a grudge against him, but because I think
you guys deserve to know why almost everyone on our country despise him.

All of those things were public and can be confirmed by sydnelson and other princes and important players. Just ask them.

As a final message, I would like to thank all efforts being made by VEKN on all those years. You guys are making great. But yes, kaze is correct. This is a sad time for VTES in brazil.

I hope you all could forgive me for my english mistakes.
Alexandre Costa.

I am death.
Paul Kersey, Death Wish
:vent::DOM::PRE::FOR::tha::aus::cap9:

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