New set in 2012

Izaak wrote:

The way I look at it is this: change nothing, the game continues and slowly dies out eventually. Release fan sets and you split the playerbase into two not neccesarily equally sized groups and the game dies out a little bit faster.

Then get you facts straight.
We (the "fans" that have been doing 85% of the work in this game for years!) give you numbers and facts.
There are case studies of CCG's that lost support from companies and started operating completely by fans.
Some of our "fans" studied this phenomenon. Compared numbers in their events before and after fans took over, talked with players and the new organizers, talked with CCP to see EXACTLY the extent of what could be done and the limits in use of their Intellectual Property, saw the do's and don'ts that other hobbies in our position did over the years.
Apart from the ratings system, everything that could be done by VEKN (and specially by the Inner Circle) to keep this game alive and it's players playing COULD NOT BE DONE BETTER. Period.
This is a fact. You know why?
Because we can compare. Because we study and learn from other examples.
You have no idea how awesome this page is and will be.
You have no idea how awesome this whole community is.
You have no idea how lucky we are to have these "fans" to work out our problems and reach a solution that is certainly the best for us all.
And by the way - you have no idea how talented these "fans" are.
Besides Scott, I have no doubt that the people here are more competent than the CCP executives and office staff.

In fact, many things work better now that we don't have the hassle of incompetent staff that make decisions without caring for the game or it's community.

Without new sets, much more people will leave the game. It happened with other games.
What is this VtES thing? It's a game that combines the use of cards and skill in an awesome setting and complex strategy.

These discussions of "paper prints VS real cards" or "opaque sleeves VS no sleeves" have NOTHING to do with the game itself.
These are discussions about handwork and crafts.

Cyrus wrote:

I personally find it you dismizz Izaak's fears too easily. I for one is not interested in having VEKN develop cards in general, and not releasing a PDF set in particular. I fail to see how releasing another set is going to attract new players. Allowing fan-made cards from some people but not others is hardly intuitive to new players or those out of the loop. It's far easier to just play with real cards released by WOTC/WW. I believe the burden is on the VEKN to prove 1) How releasing the new set is going to end up with a net gain of (active) players and 2) What sort of void the new set is going to fill.

We don't dismiss nobody here. In fact we are entertaining his every whim. Even the insulting ones.
Ok, you start by a preconceived notion: you're not interest in new cards done by VEKN. But I'll give you the same attention I give everyone because I think all points of view are useful. Specially because our forum Icons are the for the same thing, except mine is 1000 years older.

a. New expansions are specially good to keep the interest of current player bases. Those who like the game allot enjoy new toys to play and keep interest. Multiple CCG's in our situation have this experience. If you are not aware of this, please take into account that many people here who are experienced, know what they are doing and love the game too.

b. Why only some people get to choose what cards to release? Everyone can give ideas (improvement to how things went before) and those who are objectively better at that, will choose cards to be tested by the same people as before.
The design team is almost the same as before. They are not the top ranking players and have not been for years (besides Ben Peal). So the notion that they are the best players is a myth.
Fact is that they are the best developers. For years they have been working in things like the acclaimed Players Handbook, designing the pre con decks, cards for expansions, etc.
It is intuitive to have the best people for the job doing it. We are fortunate to have them because the result will be better.

c. What void will this fill? Mathematically groups 5/6 are not complete, therefore there are many vampires that haven't been used.
Filling that gab is good for the game.

Hope some of your questions have been addressed. If not, keep'em coming.

Tiago

Brum wrote:

a. New expansions are specially good to keep the interest of current player bases. Those who like the game allot enjoy new toys to play and keep interest. Multiple CCG's in our situation have this experience. If you are not aware of this, please take into account that many people here who are experienced, know what they are doing and love the game too.

I find this a bit insulting. Maybe you are saying that me or my playgroup dosent like the game. Thats why we are travelling to the EC and NAC to mention the biggest tournements. But, as far as I can call it, no one of us are happy about this new set, and these new toys. Im 50/50 pro and con, and as I can seem to call more are con the pro this set. We will ofcouse accept it and proberly use it, but actully I find it a bit of a stretch that this game needed new toys, and that we (myself playing since 1994) needed this to keep us intersted.

Its fine that you have it that way, but please, dont state it like its a universal truth, and that if we dont agree on it, we dont like the game.

/Jesper

Brum:

1) You're confusing "insulting" with criticizing".

2) Don't try to sound clever when you don't have any facts backing it up. You try and dismiss my opinion and anecdotal evidence from my own play environment with "facts" that have zero basis.

3) The VEKN IC is not some sort of holy circle of perfect people. They make mistakes too. Their two biggest ones being complete lack of communication and appointing invisible "old-school fans" as movers and shakers.

If I woulnd't be here crusading and directly criticizing VEKN, but instead just nodding "yes" and "cool" like yourself, Johannes wouldn't have been posting updates and informing the people that post here of what's going on the past 2 days.

That finally happening is GOOD and if it actually keeps going I might be able to convince my local players that VEKN is actually good instead of just a bunch of fans trying to be important, as they are looked at right now. What I need is some ammunition to throw at my players to convince them VEKN is good. Smoke and mirror statements is not going to do it.

What you -and VEKN apparently as well- failed to realize is that the VAST majority of active players DO NOT read this forum. They aren't even registered here. They are pointed to VEKN.net (by me for example), see an annoying to read website in work unfriendly colors, with news updated 6 months ago (until yesterday). They will simply close their browser and think "whatever." This too has been pointed out SEVERAL times in the forums in the very first week of the website launching.

Jesper wrote:

I find this a bit insulting. Maybe you are saying that me or my playgroup dosent like the game. Thats why we are travelling to the EC and NAC to mention the biggest tournements. But, as far as I can call it, no one of us are happy about this new set, and these new toys. Im 50/50 pro and con, and as I can seem to call more are con the pro this set. We will ofcouse accept it and proberly use it, but actully I find it a bit of a stretch that this game needed new toys, and that we (myself playing since 1994) needed this to keep us intersted.

Its fine that you have it that way, but please, dont state it like its a universal truth, and that if we dont agree on it, we dont like the game.

/Jesper

I didn't mean that if don't want new material you like the game less.
I prefer Camarilla over Sabbat. That's my choice. I would prefer KoT over 3rd for N reasons but I understand that people can (and should) choose differently. Doesn't mean they like the game less than me.
I was just saying that there are A LOT of people that like the game, want new cards and that the people that are doing and testing them clearly do it because they think it's the best for the game.
Of course that the lack of new material will not make the current player base run away. But eventually some people will like to have new cards.
Many of them would like it already.
You playgroup isn't happy about the new cards? Were they happy when they where released by CCP?
If so, what's the difference? LSJ isn't here?
Paper print VS real cards from real boosters? (To me that discussion has nothing to do with VtES, as I explained).
The fact that now there's no possibility of collecting or trading the new material? This is a mute point, because there's nothing to do about that. I regret it also.
Is it a problem to you guys that now the player's ideas will be taken into account? I fail to see this as bad.

Besides the delivery system, LSJ leaving and the fact that players have a more direct impact in what comes out, there's no real difference from CCP times.
Maybe people didn't know how things were done before and are just now discovering issues with the whole process.
Ok - that is also a healthy discussion, but if they didn't leave the game before, there's no reason to leave now.
Except, of course, the collecting issue and crafts / handy work being more important than VtES.