New set in 2012

nc-italy wrote:

When using V:EKN issued cards they must be color printed on standard paper and inserted into opaque sleeves before another Vampire: The Eternal Struggle or Jyhad card

So, if any doubt can still arise on the matter, maybe it's about the "quality standard" of such prints self made by the players (to me it's not: it's crystal clear that we must print in color the pdf cards ourselves on standard quality paper)

Just to nitpick here, there is no such thing as "standard paper" in the U.S. A quick search of any online retailer shows a dozen different designations from several different companies, and "copy paper" from company A will not be indistinguishable from "copy paper" from company B. And cardstock is a kind of paper.

This rule could just have easily been written as "When using V:EKN issued cards they must be color printed and inserted into opaque sleeves, before another Vampire: The Eternal Struggle or Jyhad card if necessary to satisfy the marked cards rule". You could then print "PDF fan set available for free download at vekn.net" on all of the vekn-issued cards.

Lönkka wrote:

The heart of the matter is that VEKN can't be seen promoting or condoning a possible copyright infringement. Hence, the official standfor using PDF cards is what it is in the current rules.

BTW If you attend VEKn tournaments you are a member of VEKN as every attendee gets a VEKN number.

How the things are printed makes absolutely no difference as to whether there is copyright infringement. If there is a copyright infringement in printing new cards on card stock, then there is also a copyright infringement in printing them on paper. Copyright infringement is all about unauthorized reproduction; the execution of the reproduction is irrelevant.

The restriction doesn't protect anyone from copyright infringement exposure, and worse, in my opinion it does not have any value with regard to the stated intent (preserving game value to a future publisher).

jamesatzephyr wrote:

KevinM wrote:

As nothing was ever said (or done) for the 15+ years prior to now, I can only hypothesize that there is a lack of respect, if not outright disregard, for the people now running the game.

Remember kids, no-one ever played 4CL.

No-one ever enforced the Golden Tenets or the Sensible Players Tournament Rules before they were ratified.

No-one ever set up a regional (then national) Jyhad League.

Did anyone ever do these things at a tournament? Nope.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

No-one has ever run a Continental Championship telling people that they openly disapprove of VP deals and that players need "powerful reasons" to make deals, rather than just following the rules (which demanded no such "powerful reasons"), because they disagreed with LSJ's rulings on the subject.

And that person, who shall remain nameless, was in the wrong, and many, many people told him so.

jamesatzephyr wrote:

If you remember any of these things happening, you are wrong - KevinM has rewritten reality.

Thanks for the rhetoric. It was incredibly helpful to the point at-hand.

Angel74 wrote:

KevinM wrote:

I'm curious by what reasoning people think that it's acceptable to defy the will of the people now running the game.

As nothing was ever said (or done) for the 15+ years prior to now, I can only hypothesize that there is a lack of respect, if not outright disregard, for the people now running the game.

Why is that, I wonder?

I know you do not represent the VEKN in what you just posted, but please - read it back and smell the arrogance in what you stated there. It's posts like that one that keeps many players away from this forum.

It's not the people here claiming that they are going to enter tournaments with disregard for the upcoming rules set.

It's not openly questioning why the people that are in charge of the VEKN became in charge of VTES after everything that they've done.

It's not saying that those in charge are bad players and/or people.

It's not the hyperbolic, not the rhetoric, nor the factless-laden, personal-attack posts that appear here daily within the other helpful and insightful posts.

It's not the constant bitching about 15-year old sleeve and card back arguments in the belief that a new administration -- which is disrespected, anyway -- will submit to minutia-based arguments and cater to the crowd that plays with and for Fear, and not with and for the Joy of the game.

If you claim that I personally am keeping people away from VTES, you should look at my record of attracting more people to more VTES events than almost anyone in the world, no mater where or when they are held, with almost universal acclaim by the participants for the Joy of the events.

If you claim that I'm arrogant when I ask even a single question, then I'd submit that when someone responds to a question with a personal attack, it is quite telling.

The fact that I've come to expect that from a small, vocal subset of posters (and players) in the last 10 years has more to do with being unable to collect and retain players than anything I've ever done or said.

Angel74 wrote:

I think it's completely acceptable, and it has nothing to do with disrespect or disregard for the VEKN. I'm just asking questions and try to get a clear picture of the future of the game I have been playing for so many years.

So the VEKN should respect your posts and find them completely acceptable, because you're just asking questions and trying to get a clear picture of the future of the game, and you don't respect me and my posts when I ask a single question for the same reason? I see.

Angel74 wrote:

Since we're all 'running the game' now, ...

Labeling me as arrogant and then saying this? Wow.

KevinM wrote:

jamesatzephyr wrote:

KevinM wrote:

As nothing was ever said (or done) for the 15+ years prior to now, I can only hypothesize that there is a lack of respect, if not outright disregard, for the people now running the game.

Remember kids, no-one ever played 4CL.

No-one ever enforced the Golden Tenets or the Sensible Players Tournament Rules before they were ratified.

No-one ever set up a regional (then national) Jyhad League.

Did anyone ever do these things at a tournament?

Erm, the MJL/NJL ran a whole parallel tournament structure. That was precisely done at tournaments. That was half the point of it.

Many people did all sorts of crazy things back in the day when the DCI tournament rules changed back and forth in unpredictable, lunatic ways. At tournaments. Many times.

KevinM wrote:

Nope.

Uh, yes. These things happened.

A lot of solid things have been stated about the way cards should be or could be printed, so I'll leave it at that. I still don't agree the VEKN could be sued for cards that I print in a way not supported by them, but as long as they think that's the case - okay, no problem, I'll use pieces of paper in front of cards in sleeves on VEKN tournaments.

nc-italy wrote:

To be crystal clear on this, there are no such "statements leaving
room for interpretation"

Tournament rules have been already changed accordingly for the future pdf set since last 02 december, with an official update annoucement

Tournament rules on that are updated since then, accordingly

When using V:EKN issued cards they must be color printed on standard paper and inserted into opaque sleeves before another Vampire: The Eternal Struggle or Jyhad card

Emiliano, you know I respect you and many others in the VEKN, but this simply isn't true. Most obvious example is that 'standard paper' in the US differs from what 'standard paper' is in the Netherlands, both in size and weight. So, there's room for interpretation. And I don't even know about papersize and -weight in other countries.

But I am getting the general idea now, after the last few posts. The rule is out there, decision has been made, final ruling is there. End of discussion. Got it. I won't spoil any future tournament by willingly bringing cards printed any different from what VEKN tournament rules state, for it's my own choice to attend said tournament.

I still wish to disclaim: I never said the VEKN did a poor job on that, ever. There are some points I could comment on, but that's something for a whole new thread, if I ever decide it's worth to vent my personal opinion again on this forum.

As for the new set and printing discussion: "color printed on standard paper and inserted into opaque sleeves before another Vampire: The Eternal Struggle or Jyhad card" it will be.