New set in 2012

Izaak wrote:

A rule being written somewhere doesn't make it a good rule.

DQing people from tournaments because they have good "proxies" instead of marked ones is nonsensical and poisonous for the game.

And attempting to rail against something that is primarily about the copyright issues AND future marketability issues of this game is equally dense.

If you want to debate what "standard paper" is, then I suggest you go to your local supermarket or newsagent and ask them for a reem of paper. The weight of that would be "standard paper".

If you have issues getting nice 300+ dpi printing on your home computer, then it isn't too hard to find a nice printing place that will run off around 10-20 A4 pages for less than $15 (even at the slightly extortionist rates we tend to pay in Australia).

If you have an issue with me, as a Judge and Prince, following this rule of VEKN-sanctioned tournaments... then grow up and get over the fact that things, in this instance, aren't going to go your way.

Just don't ask the VEKN to condone things which they know would be detrimental to the goals of the VEKN.

Which is in the discussion at hand, not the case.

The onus is on VEKN to explain why silly rules are being added (and, likely enforced on NAC/EC level). The arguments why proper "proxies" will be forbidden so far have been:

1) Legality and IP issues. This is a flawed argument until VEKN starts selling and distributing said copies. There is as much IP infringement in printing black and white copies of the PDF than there is if you print them on card stock. *Creating and distributing* the PDF is what is breaking copyrights in the first place. What people do with it afterwards is irrelevant. I also -again- want to point out that I can, by international law, copy or reproduce *whatever* intellectual property that I legally acquired as long as it's for my own use.

2) The fantasy future publisher. For reasons I cannot possibly fathom, the VEKN believes that if a limited number of people use cardstock printed proxies, the FFP will see this as a drawback and not go through with his intended plan of printing and selling new cards. Now, of course in my world, I would see people going out of their way to make the fan-based cards as real as possible as an encouragement because apparently there is actual demand for those real cards I would create and sell. In fact, if I'd see everyone play with photocopies and slips of paper I'd conclude that the game is doing just fine without actual cards and move on to invest in another project.

3) The e-bay argument. By disallowing cardstock proxies VEKN believes they will prevent people from selling those cards on e-bay and present it as the real deal. Since whatever rule they make VEKN cannot control e-bay anyway, people that are inclined to do will do so anyway. The idea is probably that if those cards are illegal at tournaments people wouldn't buy them but that's speculation at best. Also, since there is no rarity involved you cannot possible make enough money from e-baying them to cover the cost of printing them in any amounts.

So what we are left with is no valid arguments against properly sized and good looking new cards other than the "BECAUSE I SAY SO" from VEKN.

The VEKN is trying to ensure that the playerbase remains at a healthy level

If this is their goal, they are going the wrong direction.

If you have an issue with me, as a Judge and Prince, following this rule of VEKN-sanctioned tournaments... then grow up and get over the fact that things, in this instance, aren't going to go your way.

Thank you for another excellent contribution. If you don't want to understand the argument and cannot see past the blindfolds you got there, put the personal attacks in a nice PM.

*Clearly* this discussion is nowhere like any other discussion about a convoluted decision made by the VEKN. The unfortunate fact is that you, among many others, see VEKN as the personifcation of holyness and as such will argue on their side even if they'd tell you it's best for the game to burn all your cards.

If you want to be an ass about it and DQ the three guys that drove 300 miles to your tournament because they printed their new cards on 220g cardboard and cut some nice round corners instead of sticking 80 gram papers with an original card, feel free to do so.

I may be the "vocal minority" but I don't give a fuck. I can have my opinion and am willing to change it once I have been convinced I'm wrong. At the moment, vain attempts by various people have been made by repeating the same untruths.

Izaak wrote:

1) Legality and IP issues. This is a flawed argument until VEKN starts selling and distributing said copies. There is as much IP infringement in printing black and white copies of the PDF than there is if you print them on card stock. *Creating and distributing* the PDF is what is breaking copyrights in the first place. What people do with it afterwards is irrelevant. I also -again- want to point out that I can, by international law, copy or reproduce *whatever* intellectual property that I legally acquired as long as it's for my own use.

What you fail to understand is that this is a civil matter, not a penal one. The point has never been that distributing a pdf is legal whereas selling cards is not, it is that the VEKN will not receive a C&D order from CCP/Wizards if they only do the first and cards do not end up for sale on ebay. Or to put it differently: everything is legal as long as nobody complains.

2) The fantasy future publisher. For reasons I cannot possibly fathom, the VEKN believes that if a limited number of people use cardstock printed proxies, the FFP will see this as a drawback and not go through with his intended plan of printing and selling new cards.

The step is very small between producing high quality prints of the pdf set and making fake cards. All it takes is a good scanner. Once someone starts making a business with selling prints, how long before the market is flooded with fake cards? That would be the end of the game: once a population is used to get what they want for free, it is nearly impossible to bring them back to the pay market (see: the music industry), and it is not worth the hassle for a niche game.

A future publisher might also see the pdf set as easy value if the proxy players are willing to pay for better quality, official prints, but I think it is a fringe point at best: to make $$ out of VTES, all you have to do is to reprint KoT.

What if it is the organizer who plays proxies?

He, too, shall remain nameless...

Izaak wrote:

So what we are left with is no valid arguments snip
other than the "BECAUSE I SAY SO"

To me at least, this seems to work both ways...