Poll Villein

Joscha wrote:

As I stated elsewhere I'm in a strong doubt wether the outcome of those polls could be called representative.

I also strongly doubt that the player opinion is alway the better things. It help to make acceptables decisions and to avoid stupid decision, but I agree that VtES evolution is better with a strong direction that hear the player than by collegial decision of every interested player.

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wastaz wrote:

* 2 villeins for $9.99 a piece + shipping $3.50 = $23.48
* 2 villeins for $13.50 a piece + shipping $2.50 = $29.50
* 6 villeins for $15.00 a piece + shipping $1.45 = $91.45
Total = $144.43

The prices on ebay for villein is ridiculous. You can NOT get villeins for $7-8 a piece - that is in the current state of the game a myth. This will scare away new and returning players. New and returning players are a good thing. Also, I like waffles.

[/quote]

Or you could just WAIT a look for the right time to buy them, they are up there at times being sold for 6-7$ including shipment.

Check this link: so much for it "being a myth".

But ofcouse, if you dont want to work alittel for it. No you CANT have all the cards you want for NOTHING. Like any other card game, you either need to pay money or attention to how to get what you would like to play...

Tell me a CCG where this isent true?

/Jesper

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Jesper wrote:

Or you could just WAIT a look for the right time to buy them, they are up there at times being sold for 6-7$ including shipment.

Check this link: so much for it "being a myth".

But ofcouse, if you dont want to work alittel for it. No you CANT have all the cards you want for NOTHING. Like any other card game, you either need to pay money or attention to how to get what you would like to play...

Tell me a CCG where this isent true?

/Jesper

I was a Magic player for many years and spent an extreme amount of money on that game playing T1. So no, in comparison to that game VTES is cheap. I agree with you. And yes, "being a myth" was probably a bit too harsh a language because -yes- sometimes you can find good deals on villeins on ebay. That is the truth and I fully agree with you. I do not believe that all the cards I want should be available for nothing. The "hunt for the cards I need" is a part of all CCG's.

But I do feel that you missed the larger point here.
Villein isn't Enkil Cog or Summon History. Not owning a set of Villeins locks you out of way too many deck types for the game to be as interesting as we all know it is. New players has have an easy way to enter the game and "feel" how awesome it is. If all new players has to sit on ebay and wait for someone to post a good deal on villeins we -are- going to lose a lot of new players. So IMHO the price on ebay we should take into account is the normal day-to-day prices that are easy to find, even for newcomers. Those prices are the ones I posted earlier (which you can still see if you search for villein on ebay).

You can find great deals on ebay, but only _one_ person can win the great deal. And then the rest has to wait for another one. I'm still waiting for a great deal on parity shifts since I don't have any and I don't wish to pay the normal ebay price for them. This hoses the camarilla vote decks I build, but in the parity shift case I can still make -decent- vote decks without them. Now, there are hardly no great deals showing up for parity shifts on ebay anymore. This sucks, and since there won't be any reprinting of parity shifts anytime soon I probably won't ever get any at all. But at least missing Parity Shifts doesn't lock me out of as many deck types as missing Villeins would. (Which is also a big part of why I am PRO on Parity Shift but CON on Villein.)

I also see that you completely ignored my comment on supply and demand and the implications for future pricing of the card. Is it because you think it was completely wrong or because you don't see demand going up for villeins in the future?

Starting to play VTES should be easy. Not hard. A game like this survives by not stagnating, CCG's needs new players to live. Without new players the old players will sooner or later become bored and quit. If we want this game to live we must not forget the new players just because CCP/WW stopped printing the game. Not being in print any longer is enough of a threshold to get new players to step over. We don't need to add "oh and then you have to go on ebay and pay $150 for 10 copies of this card, or wait for someone to post a great deal" to the list of things that new players has to do if they wish to start out with this game.

Staple cards that _needs_ to go in almost every deck should be cheap and available. That is where I felt that VTES had got it right. A huge majority of the staple cards in this game are common/uncommon, relatively cheap and plentiful. In magic you pretty much play with decks of rare cards - which is horrible and creates the "I have the most cash, I win" situation that we all hate.

The changes that we need to do to at least make minion tap _playable_ again are very minor and would open a slighty easier way to play bigcaps even for new players, and un-wallpaper minion tap. The MT hosing part should -at least- be taken out, and I'm not against limiting the amount of blood that can be pulled off with villein either - but I see that as strictly priority 2. I'm all for keeping villein as a trifle, but being a trifle is so powerful that in order to keep it as one it really needs to be "worse" than MT in some way. Again, see the vessel/blood doll relation. Currently there really is -never- any reason to play Minion Tap over Villein.

-- Fred

Ps.
Also, I apologize in advance if my language is harsh, I am not in any way attempting to insult you. I'm just very adamant in my beliefs in this case and I feel that your argument was not strong enough to discredit my earlier post. And I'm not really sure how to phrase my arguments in a less harsh way.

These polls are quite useless unless we vote for a package of cards. It´s the combos, not the individual cards that are the problem.

wastaz wrote:

I was a Magic player for many years and spent an extreme amount of money on that game playing T1. So no, in comparison to that game VTES is cheap. I agree with you. And yes, "being a myth" was probably a bit too harsh a language because -yes- sometimes you can find good deals on villeins on ebay. That is the truth and I fully agree with you. I do not believe that all the cards I want should be available for nothing. The "hunt for the cards I need" is a part of all CCG's.

Well its not just “sometimes” they are there quite frequently, and mind, that the link I provided wasent even sold, at the pris of 7,5 pr. Villein.

wastaz wrote:

But I do feel that you missed the larger point here.

Not really, I just wanted to show that what you posted was plainly wrong, and it took me about 30 seconds to find out. The price of Villein are being debated here quite often, and quite often people comes with the things you say, and its plain and simple wrong.

wastaz wrote:

Villein isn't Enkil Cog or Summon History. Not owning a set of Villeins locks you out of way too many deck types for the game to be as interesting as we all know it is. New players has have an easy way to enter the game and "feel" how awesome it is. If all new players has to sit on ebay and wait for someone to post a good deal on villeins we -are- going to lose a lot of new players. So IMHO the price on ebay we should take into account is the normal day-to-day prices that are easy to find, even for newcomers. Those prices are the ones I posted earlier (which you can still see if you search for villein on ebay).

This is completely up to the playgroups, and can quite easy be solved,
a) By allowing proxies
b) By borrowing if trading is not possible

If the play groups aren’t interested in fixing this, then, as I see it, it is really a local problem.

wastaz wrote:

You can find great deals on ebay, but only _one_ person can win the great deal. And then the rest has to wait for another one.

Yeah, and in the link I provided no one even wanted to have them. But that’s proberly because its easier hanging around vekn.net and complain about the prices being to high.

wastaz wrote:

I'm still waiting for a great deal on parity shifts since I don't have any and I don't wish to pay the normal ebay price for them. This hoses the camarilla vote decks I build, but in the parity shift case I can still make -decent- vote decks without them.

And I need 9 Ezmaralds to make my 12 Ezmaralda all star crypt. But I can either pay 50$ a pop, trade for them or find something else to do.

wastaz wrote:

Now, there are hardly no great deals showing up for parity shifts on ebay anymore. This sucks, and since there won't be any reprinting of parity shifts anytime soon I probably won't ever get any at all. But at least missing Parity Shifts doesn't lock me out of as many deck types as missing Villeins would. (Which is also a big part of why I am PRO on Parity Shift but CON on Villein.)

I don’t know what “a good deal” for you is, so hard for me to say.

wastaz wrote:

I also see that you completely ignored my comment on supply and demand and the implications for future pricing of the card. Is it because you think it was completely wrong or because you don't see demand going up for villeins in the future?

Becouse all I wanted to point out that you “its all a myth” was wrong. But yes I belive it is completely wrong, there are no sign that the prices of e.g. Villeins are going up (but maybe Kevin could comment on the, since he is watching this much more closely these days than I am).

wastaz wrote:

Starting to play VTES should be easy. Not hard.

But it is, its insanly hard to start play, simply because of the insanely complex rules, and that you got ever card ever printet (minus a handful or two) there is legal to play.

wastaz wrote:

A game like this survives by not stagnating, CCG's needs new players to live. Without new players the old players will sooner or later become bored and quit. If we want this game to live we must not forget the new players just because CCP/WW stopped printing the game. Not being in print any longer is enough of a threshold to get new players to step over. We don't need to add "oh and then you have to go on ebay and pay $150 for 10 copies of this card, or wait for someone to post a great deal" to the list of things that new players has to do if they wish to start out with this game.

Ill use a quote from Johannes on this:

johannes wrote:

The point of the set is to keep the interest in the existing community alive. A 20-30 card set that is fixing some holes of cards that were never printed but should be there will hardly help a new player. VTES is an exclusive club because the game is insanely complex. Stuff for new players would be awesome of course, but I think that will not happen unless some company picks it up. The goal of the VEKN is to preserve as much as possible and hope for someone to come along and publish it again.

wastaz wrote:

Staple cards that _needs_ to go in almost every deck should be cheap and available. That is where I felt that VTES had got it right. A huge majority of the staple cards in this game are common/uncommon, relatively cheap and plentiful. In magic you pretty much play with decks of rare cards - which is horrible and creates the "I have the most cash, I win" situation that we all hate.

I think we partly agree on this, but Ill also claim that they partly are that also. There have been plenty of discussion going around older cards that some either means a) should be fixed or b) printed in someway.

Right now there is _no way_ to get those cards printed again. And for that if you do errata a cards you have no way of printing a correctly worded version of the card. And talking from experience, you don’t help new players with having a bunch of cards where you need to tell them every time what they dose and keep reminding them of it, because they cant read it. So only solution I see is to ban the cards. And let me say, there are _alot_ of cards I rather see on a ban list then Villein. Also v:tes have a tradition of only banning cards when it was extremely necessary.

wastaz wrote:

The changes that we need to do to at least make minion tap _playable_ again are very minor and would open a slighty easier way to play bigcaps even for new players, and un-wallpaper minion tap. The MT hosing part should -at least- be taken out, and I'm not against limiting the amount of blood that can be pulled off with villein either - but I see that as strictly priority 2. I'm all for keeping villein as a trifle, but being a trifle is so powerful that in order to keep it as one it really needs to be "worse" than MT in some way. Again, see the vessel/blood doll relation. Currently there really is -never- any reason to play Minion Tap over Villein.

But as mentioned above, no way of printing a new version of the card either. Which kinda, really really sucks, if you reword the card. Maybe, just maybe, we could se a Minion Tap/Villein type card in one of the upcoming vekn sets? Just an idea for the designers ;o)

wastaz wrote:

Ps.
Also, I apologize in advance if my language is harsh, I am not in any way attempting to insult you. I'm just very adamant in my beliefs in this case and I feel that your argument was not strong enough to discredit my earlier post. And I'm not really sure how to phrase my arguments in a less harsh way.

Non taken, as mentioned I just wanted to point out that what you said was wrong 

/Jesper

Excuse me, guys, this is the poll-thread. Could I sincerely ask you if you could lead this discussion in the "On Villein"-thread, because hopefully there the majority of players will gather arguments both CON and PRO to come to a decision. And it appears to me you both see the availability of the card as important to judge if it is good for the game or bad. I think in that thread your arguments will rather be read.